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Real Estate Agent – Ballard Property

‘I’ve learned a lot of lessons by watching other people stop work. It’s not a nice sight and while ever you can keep your brain functioning, if you want to work, I think you should work … In fairness to yourself.’

A prestige property real estate agent in Sydney for over fifty-five years, the legendary Bill Bridges may be in his eighties but he has an undiminished appetite for the next deal and the one after it – be it for tens of millions or just millions of dollars. An ex-jockey who grew up in Cabramatta, some of his self-confessed rough edges are still apparent, but they don’t seem to stop him from making those record transactions!

www.ballardproperty.com.au

Interview

BRETT KELLY: It is truly great to be with Bill Bridges, a long-time Sydney real estate agent, today. Bill, where did you grow up?

BILL BRIDGES: I was born in Liverpool, in the western suburbs of Sydney, and I did my schooling at Cabramatta Public School. I think there were only two Asian families in Cabramatta when I was there. They were racehorse trainers. I used to ride track work for them. One was called Billy Bushan and the other bloke was called Jack King.

BK: So, you grew up with horses?

BB: Well, I was an apprentice jockey at Warwick Farm when I was very, very young– sixty-odd years ago – for a bloke called Norman Turnbull. He taught me a lot.He was a scallywag, of course, as they all were in those days. Fortunately for me, I liked food better than I liked riding horses. The two don’t work well together, so instead, I spent quite a few years around the racetrack with jockey friends of mine, riding track work and, as always, I was the guy that found the punters for the jockeys.

They weren’t supposed to bet, but they all bet. It was like asking a rabbit not to eat lettuce, asking a jockey not to bet. Some bet very heavily. But in those days the prize money was very small, of course. We would race for £10 or whatever it was – it was pounds in those days – and of course they used to hold the horses and wait until they got to the right race and the right price. In those days, you would bet SP. There were only a couple of jockeys who knew which horses could win – a lot of jockeys could ride horses, but they didn’t know if they could win.

BK: you did OK?

BB: We were very successful.

BK: And then, after horses?

BB: After horses I became a contract cleaner. But before that, I worked for an SPbookmaker, which was a bit of an ongoing thing. Another great experience, but then I became a contract cleaner.

BK: And was it your business, or were you working for somebody?

BB: I was working with another guy. I was cleaning the Post Office at Balmain and this fellow came up to me, Max van Lubeck. He was a property dealer and a wheeler-dealer in a big way. He called me down from the ladder and said, ‘Would you clean a house for me?’ So I said, ‘Yeah, that would be fine. Where is it?’ and he said, ‘It’s in Balmain, Stephen Street.’ I said, ‘Oh, yeah? What am I cleaning it for?’ and he said, ‘I want to sell it.’

So I went and looked at the house and I said, ‘How much do you want for this?’I knew nothing about selling houses, of course. He said £3 000, I think it was, and I said, ‘Oh yeah. What do I do if someone comes in?’ He said, ‘Just take their name.’So a bloke came in and we got nagging and he said, ‘I want to buy it.’ So Max came back and I said, ‘I’ve sold that – will you take three?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ And then he said, ‘I’ve got about another twenty houses. Would you like to clean them?’

Anyway, the story is, I sold thirty-two houses in six weeks for Mr van Lubeck and he thought I could walk on water. But he was a great teacher. And I was a bit of a wild bloke – coming out of stables, all sorts of things, but I was very streetwise and I knew a bit about people. I was not frightened by people and because of the background that I’d had, I went on from there. But I had a bit of a problem getting my real estate licence because I’d had SP betting charges made against me. I had to go to court for my real estate licence and they challenged me, but I had a good barrister called Horrie Miller. The crown prosecutor flew at me. He said, ‘You’re being entrusted with trust funds,’ and ‘blah, blah, blah …’

In those days, it was a much simpler situation – now you have to do exams and all. So I got a bit sick of this fellow questioning me about my illegal activities because we all went off in turns, you see … The sergeant from Wollongong Police Station would phone up and say, ‘Well, I’ve got to come and pinch someone, the neighbours are complaining,’ and we’d all go off in turn. That was the way it all worked those days.

So, he said, ‘Well, what was your job?’ and I said, ‘I was a clerk there and taking money,’ and he said, ‘What else did you do?’ And I thought, I’ll fix this bloke up. So I said, ‘Well, every Sunday at the end of the month, I had to take the brown paper bag up to Sergeant Russell at the police station.’ This was a lie and I was bluffing, but it worked (of course, this is exactly what went on). I had the licence in three minutes.The bloke didn’t want to hear any more about it. He said, ‘I grant the licence.’

BK: How old were you when you got your first licence?

BB: I’d have been in my twenties, I think. But I’ve been in the business for fifty-five years last January [2012].

BK: So, you were licensed and you were working for this gentleman?

BB: I was working for Max.

BK: And essentially, any projects he developed, you were selling?

BB: Yes. He used to buy lots of rows of houses – rent-controlled houses. And of course, we raided Paddington. We used to buy streets of houses for £2 000 and£3 000 each.

BK: OK–

BB: And the same houses today now bring in $1.3 million each. I was the guy that started Paddington, me and two other blokes. But I had to get the tenants out. We got rid of all the rent-controlled tenants which the government loved, because they were all Labor voters. The Liberal government didn’t like them …

BK: And then you renovated the properties?

BB: We’d renovate the properties – paint them or whatever – and then resell them.A lot of them were sold back to the tenants. Some of the older tenants have recently died. I saw one of the old ladies the other day. She bought a house for £3 500. I used to finance them. I’d buy them for £3 000 and sell them for £4 000. We’d get them a first mortgage of £3 000 and we’d carry a second mortgage of £1 000, which was a lot of money in those days, but they all paid. No-one ever went bad. And then, of course, as time went on, if they were paying the mortgage, we would sell the mortgage and discount them. It was all manipulating finance. You know, in actual fact, it’s going on today because banks are not lending money to people.

‘And I was a bit of a wild bloke … but I was very streetwise and I knew a bit about people. I was not frightened by people and because of the background that I’d had, I went on from there.’

BK: Tell me the story about Paddington. It’s a well-known area today, but at the time, it was very modest sort of housing–

BB: Yeah. Streets and streets of them. I’d have to look it up, but I think in the 1960s and seventies, there were 37 000 rent-controlled properties in New South Wales alone, mainly in the city areas like Glebe, Paddington and Surry Hills.

BK: OK. So, when you move forward to today, you look at an area like Millers Point, where there’s public housing – does that look like Paddington thirty years ago?

BB: Not really. Those areas – Annandale and Leichhardt – are all coming good because of their proximity to the city. People want to live close to the city, but they can’t all afford to, so it’s going very well.

Actually, we put a house up for auction the other day in Stanmore. It was terribly rundown but it sold for $800 000 – that was $300 000 over the reserve.Now, I don’t sell those lesser houses, I let the kids here sell them …

BK: OK, so, you’re moving on, you’ve got your own agency. Was that part of a franchise group or you owned it yourself?

BB: No, he [Max van Lubeck] got me my licence and I worked for him for a long time. He was a fantastic bloke and he took control of me because, as I said, I was a bit wild. I had a bit of a short fuse in those days, and you know, he used to have to pull me into line on the odd occasion, but he was a great bloke.

He liked to drink, which was his downfall, and he liked women, which I won’t hold against him, but he was a great bloke and he knew a lot about me. And of course, I knew a bit about him, but he learned plenty from me as well. Because, you know, I was a bit of a rough-cut diamond.

BK: But he was a good man toward you, essentially. Was he much older than you?

BB: Yes. He was an ex-prisoner of war. He was in the air force when he was captured by the Germans. Terrific bloke. Then we parted ways. He fell on a few hard times. One of the main fellows that he was doing business with was a bloke called Alan Blum. He went to jail for embezzlement and the whole thing fell apart. And then I went to work with a bloke called George Cooper, a rails bookmaker in Oxford Street.

BK: As a bookie’s clerk?

BB: No, no more bookies. He had a real estate agency as well. Good bloke, too.He’s dead now.

BK: And you ran his agency?

BB: I worked with his agency. We worked in the Darlinghurst area. Then I broke into the big diamond side and sold the dearest house in Sydney, to Sir Raymond and Lady Burrell.

BK: Which house was that?

BB: That was Rosemont House. Formerly owned by Lady Lloyd Jones. That was my first break-through. It was a record at the time of £2 800 000.

BK: In what year was that, roughly, 1960s or seventies?

BB: That was twenty-four years ago, actually twenty-five years ago.

BK: So, 1985.

BB: That’s right.

BK: How did you come to find that listing?

BB: Well, I was creeping up the ladder, selling dearer houses. And I was becoming pretty good at it, very consistent and then starting in the Paddington area.I sold to all sorts of different people in Paddington, like lots of people and lots of money, and lots of very social women came to work for me and said, ‘Oh, give this to Billy, give this to Billy. He’ll sell this and he’ll sell that.’

BK: What is the art of selling a very expensive house? Where do you look?

BB: Well, to sell real estate, there are three or four things you need. The most important thing is to have energy. And you must have a fantastic memory. And you must know your values. You see, if I go along to someone, or someone calls me up wanting to sell a house, I can tell them what it is worth – if it’s 20 million or 30 million or 50 million – because I have sold so many of them. The only way to get to know what a property is worth is by having sold them. You know, people would say, ‘I’ve had three agents look at this, but we want your opinion.’ So I say, what have they sold? I produce a brochure when I go there, like this. Another sale, another record, and a photograph …

BK: This is fantastic.

BB: Yeah. That’s the dearest house sold on the waterfront in Sydney, which I sold.

BK: Which house was that?

BB: That is number 25 Coolong Road, Vaucluse. And this is the one I just sold to Jamie Packer. I’ve sold Jamie the five houses he owns. I sold him the one he lived in in Campbell Parade. I sold him the one he lived in with Kate Fischer. I sold him this one, as well as the one he lives in on the corner of Campbell Parade which I sold to his sister, Gretel, her house for David Archer. I sold him five houses and this one is a record for a rural property in New South Wales.

BK: Oran Park House –

BB: Yeah. It belonged to Ashley Dawson-Damer. I sold that for $19 million for 150 acres.

BK: And who bought it?

BB: A mob called Valard.

BK: Fantastic. Wolseley Road, Point Piper – $45 million.

BB: Yeah. I’ve sold that three times and I’ve got a lot of money.

BK: That’s on the market.

BB: Yeah. I’ve got that. So, I sold that to Harry Barrett, the bookmaker, when he won $12 million off Kerry [Packer].

‘It’s a no bullshit organisation. I mean, I don’t bullshit people.’

BK: Is that right?

BB: Yeah. Actually, that’s going back quite a few years. I sold that to him and then Kerry won $14 million back off him and he had to sell it again. I sold it to a bloke who’s in there at the moment for $28 million.

BK: What do you think it’s worth?

BB: Fifty … Well, he wants to sell it in two parcels. It’s unencumbered. He doesn’t owe any money on it.

BK: So, when you’ve had a track record like that –

BB: It’s a no bullshit organisation. I mean, I don’t bullshit people. Some fellow recommended me to someone. He said to the bloke, ‘My wife doesn’t like Bridges too much. She thinks he is a little bit wild.’ He said, ‘Do you want an elocution lesson or do you want to sell your house?’ So, you know, the more money they’ve got, the rougher I treat them. Otherwise they get control of you. They say,‘Another agent said he can get another $3 million more than you said,’ and I say,‘Well, you give it to him. I can’t get you that.’ They come back.

BK: So for this sort of property, you put a listing up on the internet. But in practical terms, where does the buyer come from … out of the networks that you’ve built up over time?

BB: You never know. When he bought that he came in and said, ‘I’m Deke Misken’(Altona). He had a herring tin on one foot, galoshes on the other – wouldn’t have thought he had two bob.

BK: Well, I googled him. And I thought, he’s got a bit of money, this bloke. He’s sold all these magazines to Murdoch. Dolly and others. And I said, ‘You want to raise a bit of finance on this?’ He said, ‘No, I’ll pay cash for it.’

It’s still unencumbered. He is the worst owner you can have because he doesn’t have to sell. So I said, ‘What are you going to do with the money? It’s unencumbered.’ He said. ‘I haven’t thought about that.’ I said, ‘Well, why don’t you leave some in on a first mortgage, at a very competitive rate?’ You can’t borrow money from banks. You may as well say I’m selling a finance package as well as a house. I’ve just sold one of those for another bloke for five million. I said, ‘You don’t want the money at your age. Why don’t you carry three million for the bloke. It’s foolproof, isn’t it? He’s putting in $2 million. And he said, ‘Yeah, OK.’

BK: He gets his 7%, which is pretty hard to get anywhere else.

BB: In this instance, he’s getting 8%, but he will carry the balance of 4%, but we’re going to load the interest to the purchase price. So, he doesn’t pay tax on the interest. This is all about knowing what the next move is. There’s a key to every sale. You’ve got to think where is it going or why isn’t it sold, what are they doing wrong and how can I rectifiy it.

BK: So, really looking for a solution to this problem.

BB: That’s right.

BK: I have to ask, how old are you now?

BB: 83.

BK: OK. So, you’ve got fifty-four years’ experience. you’ve been cutting deals and financing property for fifty-plus years. So it’s not a surprise with the level of innovation that you’ve used that people are coming to you for this sort of thing. What makes a great property, what do you think are the things that make people want to own these properties?

BB: Well, it’s mainly the wives.

BK: They get excited about them?

BB: The wives get the husbands to spend the money. It’s a social thing with a lot of them. Some it’s not, but, you know, they just want to be there because it’s the best. It’s very hard to resist that one. But the one over there is not so good. I’ve got an offer on that at $28 million. He should be taking it.

BK: Big, old property, isn’t it?

BB: Yes.

BK: Alright.

BB: [Pointing] Stokes lives there, and John Howard’s brother, Stan, lives there.Mackell Park lives there, and there’s Lindesay House up here.

BK: Right.

BB: So they’re the only houses in the street. You’ve got to know your streets and you’ve got to know your values. And you’ve got to know why, you’ve got to be straight with people. People don’t want to be made fools of – they don’t want to go to the Cosmopolitan or anywhere out with their friends and think they’ve paid too much money. I drive them around and show them why they’re paying $20 million. So, when their friends are saying, ‘Oh, you paid too much,’ they can say, ‘Come and I’ll show you what he sold for $20 million.’ So, I’m covering all the paths, and I’m sweeping the paths behind me as I go along.

BK: And you know these streets like the back of your hand.

BB: Every blade of grass. And there’s a story to every one.

‘I mean, the right people have always held property. paper goes out, shares go out. But bricks and mortar go on forever.’

BK: So tell me, you see these properties fluctuating in value, but in your experience, what do you think is the key to good investing in property?

BB: Well, I guess the capital gain you get. That’s not there at the moment but it will come again or there’ll be no BHP and the Queen’s made a mistake. I mean, the right people have always held property. Paper goes out, shares go out. But bricks and mortar go on forever. People have got to have somewhere to live–

BK: Absolutely. And they’re not making more of these beautiful old houses.

BB: No. There’s very few of them. And some places, I’m horrified. I go in and they say, ‘Look what I’ve done,’ and it’s enough to give you a migraine. It’s awful, you know. But I love selling that sort of house and I love selling country houses. The National Trust houses.

I’ve sold Bronte House four times – the lease of it – Matt Handbury lives there now. I sold it to Carol Muller. I sold it to Leo Schofield. I sold it to Peter Symes. I’ve sold Glen Rock three times, the wonderful old national Hume House[Cooma Cottage, aka Hamilton Hume's House, a National Trust Historic House].Minimbah House, I’ve sold that, and I’m just now signing up another four or five beautiful houses. And then I get called – I’ve just sold one at Berry. So, I get called everywhere.

BK: So, are you selling property all over Sydney?

BB: Yeah. A lot of other agents from the country phone me up and the vendors want a city agent as well. I’m one of the few blokes that they do … That’s the old SCEGGS School that I’m selling.

BK: Right.

BB: The reason people get me there is because I know all the people with the money. And the money is in the city. No-one from the country is going to buy that. I’ve got to nag someone into buying it from here.

BK: So, tell me. I love your comment about energy. A lot of people think of real estate or other professional jobs as not very physically intense, but it has been my observation that it takes a huge amount of energy to do this sort of work.

BB: Yes.

BK: To make a phone call. To take a phone call and go and see the property, trace it down.

BB: And you can’t take your eye off the ball. These people are smart. I mean, you’re playing first grade when you put the jacket on here. They’re on the ball.

BK: So who are the smart ones? Who, across fifty years, are the smartest people that you’ve dealt with?

BB: Oh, mate, I’ve had them all. There are lots of people that are terribly clever.

BK: So give us an example of something that you’ve seen done in property that you think is innovative or different. Obviously buying a whole street of rent-controlled houses is different. But since then, what have you seen that you’ve thought, that’s smart–

BB: Well, I have seen some things that I didn’t think were so clever.

BK: I was going to ask you that. Maybe you can start with them?

BB: Yes, well, when they sold Paradis Sur Mer. I wasn’t the agent. A friend of mine was the agent and I used to have a go at him. You know, I’d say, ‘How are you going here? They’re thick on the ground here, I’ve got a buyer at $15 million.’ I was having a shot, you know, and he’d say, ‘They’re thick on the ground here at $20 million,’ and this was the old Radford place where Susan Renouf lived, you know, and the guy that bought it so cheaply did some things I told him not to and then he got annoyed with me and gave it to someone else. That was alright, the other bloke was a good salesman. So anyway, that ended up selling for $12million, there was only one buyer on the night, there were the agents, the bank, and one Chinese fellow and I thought, ‘You’re going to own this tonight’. So I said,‘What happened to the thick on the ground at twenty?’ Plenty of those stories, you know …

BK: you see a lot of that?

BB: Yeah.

BK: What’s something smart you’ve seen, or something very clever?

BB: Obviously, the place Mark Bouris bought at Watson’s Bay was a very clever move. He ended up nicking that–

BK: It’s a lovely spot, isn’t it?

BB: Yeah, a lot of space. Beautiful.

‘I walk down the street and know everyone, from the paper boy to whatever, and it’s “G’day Bill!” – no one calls me Mr Bridges. I like being liked and I don’t mind those who dislike me. I couldn’t care less and you know, I’m not here for any other reason than to make money, that’s the bottom line with me …’

BK: Beautiful and closer to the city than it was. So, in conclusion, when you sit there and you look at your time spent in real estate, what is it that you think of? you know, you’re eighty-plus years old, you’re still working, is it the passion– you obviously love it? What do you think it is that makes the difference?

BB: Well, you wouldn’t do it unless you loved it. And I obviously like it and I love the challenge of it. And I’ve learned a lot of lessons from watching other people stop work. It’s not a nice sight and while you can keep your brain functioning, if you want to work, I think you should work. In fairness to yourself and to everyone else around you or you become like the blokes that retire and drink too much. I’m not knocking a drink, I love a drink, but you know you’ve got to …

BK: … to do something.

BB: You know, I keep fit to work. I get enjoyment out of work and I meet some great people. And, you know, I walk down the street and know everyone from the paperboy to whoever, and it’s, ‘G’day, Bill!’ – no-one calls me Mr Bridges.I like being liked and I don’t mind those who dislike me. I couldn’t care less. I’m not here for any other reason than to make money, that’s the bottom line with me … as long as I don’t hurt anybody. That’s the important thing.

BK: And tell me, how do you find working in an environment with younger people–

BB: I love young people around me. And the old birds with purple hair–

BK: Keep you moving?

BB: I want young people around me … they keep me young. My youngest daughter is nineteen and my next one is twenty-one. Their sister is sixty and my adopted son is sixty-two. Because I was married when I was twenty and then there is Noeli, he is fifty-eight and from my previous marriage … then my second wife and I have the two girls that have just finished school up here at Ascham, not Cabramatta Public … they’re both at uni. And I’ve got twenty-two grandchildren and six great-grandchildren.

BK: Alright!

BB: You’d think I was a Catholic, but I’m not … most of my friends are.

BK: OK (laughs). So now, tell me, there are obviously benefits to an Ascham education, but if you look at your path, there are obviously benefits from Cabramatta Public as well–

BB: The only thing they don’t have in school today and should have is a very, very strict class on being streetwise. My daughters are pretty streetwise because they’ve got me as a father and of course I’m at them all the time; you can’t buy that.

BK: That’s true.

BB: You know, I see young blokes like solicitors and accountants and doctors who wouldn’t know shit from clay – they’re not streetwise. There are some pretty clever people out there in the street, they’re not quite so well-educated, but they know how to get your money and cause trouble as well. So I think one of the best things you can have in life is to be street smart – and racing is great for that.

BK: The gentleman I interviewed yesterday is a super successful guy and he has stories that are very similar to yours. He said, ‘Brett, I failed high school, went to a sort of country school in Melbourne, but there is a trend of people who have done well that don’t seem to be necessarily academic initially, but very much driven to do something’–

BB: That’s right. You find out how to get money.

BK: Get moving.

BB: As young blokes gambling, I used to say to my mate, this better arrive, we’ve got to settle. And he wouldn’t mind knocking a few over to get there either, you know. He knew that the onus was on him. And because we had to deliver, we had to pay or find the money.

Most of the time we didn’t need to, but there were times when we did, because if you’re betting, you would say to a bloke, we want £100 on this horse and so he asks you to put in your own £100 with it. To prove it’s trying and so you’ve got £200 on it.

BK: OK.

BB: So, then we had to find the first hundred or whatever it was.

BK: yeah. To get to the next.

BB: So, that’s how you got paid. It wasn’t always easy. Money wasn’t easy in those days but we used to get up to a lot of tricks. They used to dope horses in those days and do all sorts of things like that, but all of that is gone now. And they’ve got movie cameras. They’re still at it, but it’s not as necessary as it used to be.The prize money is good now. If I had a good horse today it’d be trying all the time, because the prize money’s good – and rightly so, too. But it’s all changed –circumstances have changed and needs change.

BK: Let me ask you two final questions, if I can. Firstly, do you have a motto or quotable thought that best summarises your approach to life?

BB: Free bowels, comfortable shoes, and empty balls (laughs).

BK: Classic! And final question – and this is a rude one. When somebody comes with a $20 million property and says I want you to sell this, you see so many real estate agents hoping to wrap it, dropping commission rates and whatever to sell the property, how do they remunerate an agent at your level for that type of sale?

BB: There is no dropping in commission. As I said to somebody the other day, a millionaire is asking you to drop your commission …

BK: That is always fun.

BB: You know, I said no way. I said I am a bit like the girl in the bar in Bangkok and they said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘She lies very still for $50.’ They can interpret that any way they like. I don’t care what they say.

A motto or thought that best summarises your approach to life? – ‘Free bowels, comfortable shoes, and empty balls!’

BK: So, what is the commission rate on a $20 million house sale in this market?

BB: It should be 2% plus GST.

BK: Plus advertising?

BB: You’ve got to get the advertising. But I sell many of them without an ad because I know who buys them. But if a bloke comes along and I know he’s going bad – because I’ve been a knockabout, I’m the sort of bloke you can do a deal with – I’d say, ‘You pay me when you’re travelling alright’, or ‘When you get a bit of cash, pay me. Tell me how I’m eventually going to get it.’ It doesn’t have to be 2%, I’ll work on 1% if you’ve been a good fellow to me … But if they’re millionaires, I want them to pay me.

BK: Thank you.