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MARSHAL (Colonel Charles W. Mays): May it please the Court: the Defendants Streicher and Ribbentrop are absent from this session.

THE PRESIDENT (Lord Justice Sir Geoffrey Lawrence): Dr. Seidl.

DR. ALFRED SEIDL (Counsel for Defendant Hess): Mr. President, Your Honors, on Friday last I stated that I would not read anything from the first volume of the document book; that does not mean, however, that I should not like to refer to one or another document in my final speech. The question now arises whether, under these circumstances, documents to which I may refer, but which I will not read now should be submitted as evidence to the Court, or whether it is sufficient if these documents are copied down in the book. I would be grateful if the Court would help me regarding this question.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE (Deputy Chief Prosecutor for the United Kingdom): My Lord, I have a suggestion to make: That the Tribunal take these documents de bene esse at the moment, and that when Dr. Seidl comes to make his final speech, then any point as to admissibility can be discussed. With regard to the third book, for example, that consists of a number of opinions of various politicians and economists in various countries. The Prosecution will, in due course, submit that these have no evidential value and in fact relate to a matter too remote to be relevant. But I should have thought the convenient course would have been to discuss that when we find what ultimate use Dr. Seidl makes of the documents, at the moment letting them go in, as I suggest, de bene esse.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal think that you should offer the documents in evidence now, and that they should be numbered consecutively. Probably the best way would be with the letter "H" in front of them-H Number 1 and so on-and that then, as Sir David says, as they are being offered all together, objection, if necessary, can be taken to them at a later stage—objection on the ground of admissibility or relevance.

DR. SEIDL: Very well. I turn once more to Volume I of the document book. The first document is a speech made by the Defendant Rudolf Hess on 8 July 1934. This document will bear the Number H-1, Page 23 of the document book. The second document can be found on Page 27 of the document book...

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, Dr. Seidl. To what issue has this speech got relevance?

DR. SEIDL: The speech of 8 July 1934?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, it is the one on Page 23. It is 8 July 1934.

DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President, this speech deals with the question of war and peace. Since the Defendant Hess is accused of having participated in the psychological preparation of aggressive war, and t11us also of being a participant in the conspiracy, it seems to me that the attitude of the Defendant Hess toward the question of war is of considerable importance as regards evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will allow you to read it.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I do not intend to read the speech now. I only want to bring up the speech as an exhibit so as to be able to refer to it in my final speech, if necessary.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SEIDL: I shall read nothing at all from We first document book. I shall only mention certain documents as exhibits.

I turn to Page 28 of the document book. This is another speech by the Defendant Hess, delivered on 27 November 1934. The number of this exhibit Will be H-2.

THE PRESIDENT: The speech of 8 December 1934 begins on Page 27.

DR. SEIDL: Page 27, that is right. It was marked here incorrectly. As the third exhibit I submit a speech-that is to say, an excerpt from a speech-of 17 November 1935, Page 31 of the document book, Exhibit Number H-3.

I turn to Page 32 of the document book, an excerpt from a speech of 11October 1936, Exhibit Number H-4.

Then comes a speech of 14 March 1936, Page 33 of the document book, Exhibit Number H-5.

The next exhibit is on Page 35 of the document book, a speech of 21 March 1936, Exhibit Number H-6.

Exhibit Number H-7 is a speech on Page 36 of the document book.

Exhibit Number H-8 is a speech of 6 June 1936, on Page 40 of the document book. Then, I turn to Page 43 of the document book, a speech at the Reichsparteitag in Nuremberg 1936, Exhibit Number H-9.

There follow excerpts of a speech on Page 59 of the document book, Exhibit Number H-10.

A speech of 14 May 1938 at Stockholm is found on Page 70 of the document book, Exhibit Number H-11.

The next exhibit is on Page 78 of the document book, Exhibit Number H-12.

So much for the first volume of the document book.

I pass on to the second volume, to the affidavit which I submitted last Friday. It can be found on Page 164 of the document book. It is an affidavit made by the former Secretary, Hildegard Fath, and it will bear the Exhibit Number H-13.

The next exhibit is on Page 86 of the document book, Volume 2, a decree of 3 June 1936, Exhibit Number H-14.

And now I come to the point where I shall read certain excerpts from the minutes of the meeting between the Defendant Hess and Lord Simon, which took place on 10'June 1941. These minutes begin on Page 93 of the document book. The minutes will have the Exhibit Number H-15.

Your Honors, the Defendant Hess, on 10 May 1941, flew to England. Nobody except his then adjutant, Hitsch, knew of this flight.

The Führer himself was informed about the flight and the intentions connected therewith in a letter which was delivered to the Führer after Hess had already landed in England. After his arrival in England Hess was frequently questioned by officials of the Foreign Office, and, as already mentioned, a meeting took place between him and Lord Simon on 10 June 1941. This meeting lasted two hours and a half. In the course of this meeting the Defendant Hess told Lord Simon the reasons for his extraordinary undertaking and he then submitted four proposals, or four points, which he claimed would give the intentions of Adolf Hitler, and which he considered to be the basis for an understanding and a conclusion of peace.

For the conference Lord Simon assumed a pseudonym; in the minutes which were given to the Defendant Hess shortly after the meeting, he is referred to as Dr. Guthrie.

As far as I know, this measure was probably taken to prevent the stenographers or the translators from knowing at once what it was all about. In the minutes mention is also made of a Dr. Mackenzie, an official of the Foreign Office, and of Mr. Kirkpatrick, who had previously already spoken with the Defendant Hess.

After a few introductory remarks by Lord Simon, the Defendant Hess began to explain the reasons which led him to take his singular step, and I quote liberally from Page 93 of the document book, about the middle of the page. I must add that in the minutes, t,he Defendant Hess is referred to by the name "J." The Defendant Hess, after the introductory remarks, said the following...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, there seems to be a typographical error, probably in the date. The date is given as the 9th of August.

You said the 10th of June, did you not?

DR. SEIDL: 10 June, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Is this a mistake at the top of Page 93--9.8.41?

DR. SEIDL: On the cover of the document there is the following remark: "Minutes of the conversation which took place on 9 June 1941 somewhere in England." On the inside of the document, there is also the entry 9. 6. 41; so there must obviously be a typographical error here.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it must have been. They put "8" instead of "6."

DR. SEIDL: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SEIDL: "I know that probably nobody has correctly understood my coming; but in view of the extraordinary step that I have taken, that can by no means be expected. Therefore I would like to begin by explaining how I came to do this."

I continue on Page 94:

"The idea came to me in June of last year, during the time of the French campaign, while visiting the Führer. ..."

I believe I may omit the following incidental remarks and continue quoting further:

"I must admit that I came to the Führer convinced, as we all were, that sooner or later in the end we would surely conquer England, and I expressed the opinion to the Führer that we must naturally demand from England the. restitution of property-such as the equivalent of our merchant fleet, et cetera-which had been taken from us by the Versailles Treaty."

I turn to Page 95:

"The Fuhrer then immediately contradicted me. He was of the opinion that the war could possibly 'be an occasion for coming to an agreement with England for which he had striven ever since he had been politically active. To this I can testify, that ever since I have known the Führer, since 1921, the Führer has always said that an agreement between Germany and England had to be achieved. He said he would bring this about as soon as he was in power. He told me at that time in France that one should not impose any severe conditions, even if victorious, on a country with which one desired to come to an agreement. Then I conceived the idea that if this were known in England, it might be possible that England also might be ready for an agreement."

I turn now to Page 96 of the document book.

"Then, at the conclusion of the French campaign came the Führer's offer to England. The offer, as is known, was refused. This made me all the more firm in my belief that under these circumstances I had to execute my plan. During the subsequent period came the air war between Germany and England, which, on the whole, meant heavier losses and damages for England than for Germany. Consequently, I had the impression that England could not give in at all without suffering considerable loss of prestige. That is why I said ID myself, 'Now I must realize my plan all the more, for if I were over in England, England could be enabled to take up negotiations with Germany without loss of prestige.'"

I turn now to Page 97 of the document book. After a short incidental remark by Dr. Mackenzie, Hess continued:

"I was of the opinion that, apart from the question of the terms for an agreement, there would be still in England a, ' certain general distrust to overcome. I must confess that I faced a very grave decision, the gravest in my life, of course, and I believe I was aided by continuously keeping before my inner vision the picture of an endless row of children's coffins with the mothers weeping behind them on the German side as well as on the English side...

"THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, have you got the original document there before you?

DR. SEIDL: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Might it be handed up?

DR. SEIDL: Yes.

[The document was handed to the President.]

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.

DR. SEIDL: ". . . and vice versa, the coffins of mothers with the children behind them.

"I want to mention certain points which, I believe, have a certain importance from the psychological point of view. I must go back a bit. After Germany's defeat in the World War, the Versailles Treaty was imposed on her, and no serious historian is today still of the opinion that Germany was responsible for the World War. Lloyd George has said that the nations stumbled into the war. I recently read an English historian, Farrar, who wrote about Edward VII and his policy at that time. This historian, Farrar, lays the main guilt for the war, on the policies of Edward VII. After her collapse Germany had this treaty imposed upon her, which was not only a frightful calamity for Germany but also for the whole world. All attempts of politicians, of statesmen in Germany, before the Führer came to power-that is to say, when Germany was a pure democracy-to obtain any sort of relief failed."

I forego the reading of the following part of the minutes literally.

A conversation followed on various points. Among other things the subject of the conversation then was the air strength of Germany at that time and the preparations with regard to the building of U-boats. I do not believe that these questions are relevant in the present connection, and so I shall turn at once to that part of the minutes where mention is made of the proposals which Hess made to Lord Simon. This is on Page 152 of the document book. From the minutes we can see 'that Hess had previously written down the proposals which he wanted to submit. He gave these notes to Dr. Mackenzie and Mr. Kirkpatrick, who then read and translated them, and now I quote on Page 152, at the bottom of the page, literally: "Basis for an understanding." And here I have to ask the Tribunal to turn from Page 152 of the document book to Page 159 of the document book because the first point in the proposal obviously has been presented in the wrong fashion. On Page 159, about the middle of the page, there is a statement by Dr. Mackenzie which expresses the first point correctly, and I quote:

"In order to prevent future wars between the Axis and England, the limits of the spheres of interest should be defined. The sphere of interest of the Axis is Europe, and England's sphere of interest is the Empire."

I ask now that you turn back, namely to Page 153 of the document book. Here we find on the last line the second point of the proposals which Hess made. Dr. Mackie is reading:

"2. Return of German Colonies."

I turn to Page 154 of the document book and begin to quote at the top of the page-it is possible that the figure "2" is inadvertently repeated here in the document hook. It should be:

"3. Indemnification of German citizens who before or during the war had their residence within the British Empire, and who suffered damage to life and property through measure of a Government of the Empire or as a result of pillage, riot, et cetera; indemnification of British subjects by Germany on the same basis.

"4. Armistice and peace to be concluded with Italy at the same time." I Then there is a personal remark by Hess as follows: "The Führer in our conversation repeatedly presented these points to me in general as the basis for an understanding with England."

I shall not read any further excerpts from these minutes.

I forego the reading a$ the other passages marked in red. The conference was terminated by a statement made by Lord Simon to the effect that he would bring the proposals made by Hess to the knowledge of the British Government. That was Exhibit Number H-15.

Your Honors, the Defendant Rudolf Hess is accused in the Indictment of helping the Nazi conspirators to seize power and of furthering the military, economic, and psychological preparations for the war as mentioned under Count One of the Indictment; of participating in the political planning and preparation of aggressive wars and of war in violation of international treaties, agreements and promises, as mentioned in Counts One and Two, and of participating in the preparation and planning of foreign political plans of the Nazi conspirators as listed under Count One.

That accusation is the nucleus of the Indictment against Rudolf Hess. It is therefore my duty to discuss also briefly in evidence the circumstances which in 1939 led to the outbreak of war. In that respect I have the following to say: On 23 August 1939, at Moscow a non-aggression pact was concluded between Germany and the Soviet Union, which has already been submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit GB-145 (Document TC-25). On the same day, that is to say but 1 week before the outbreak of the war and 3 days before the planned attack on Poland, these two nations made another secret agreement. This secret agreement essentially contained the definition of the spheres of interest of both nations within the European territory lying between Germany and the Soviet Union.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, you are not forgetting, are you, the Tribunal's ruling that this is not the opportunity for making a speech, but simply the occasion for introducing documents and calling witnesses. You will have the opportunity of making your speech at a later stage.

DR. SEIDL: Yes, indeed. I do not intend to make a speech, but I intend to say a few- introductory w~rds on a document which I shall submit to the Tribunal. Germany, in the secret documents, declared herself disinterested in Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, we have not yet seen the document. If you are going to put in the document, put in the document.

DR. SEIDL: Yes. indeed. I can submit the document at once. It is an affidavit of the former ambassador, Dr. Friedrich Gaus. In the year 1939 he was the Chief of the Legal Department of the Foreign Office. He was present at the negotiations as the assistant of the then German plenipotentiary in Moscow, and it was he who drafted the non-aggression pact which has already been submitted as an exhibit, as well as the secret agreement, the contents of which I want to submit now to the Tribunal as fads which are important as evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, will you hand in the document?

DR. SEIDL: Surely. However, I intend to read parts of this document later.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal does not quite understand what this document is, because it is not included in your .document book and it does not appear that you made any application for it or made any reference to it, end it is in German; it is not translated.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, when I prepared the document book for the Defendant Hess, I did not as yet have this affidavit in my possession. It dates from 15 March 1946. At that time, when the relevancy of the applications for Defendant Hess were discussed, I had as yet no definite knowledge of the context which would have enabled me to make a proper application. The excerpts which I intend to read from this document are short, and it will be possible to have them translated immediately by the interpreters present here in the courtroom.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you a copy for the Prosecution?

DR. SEIDL: Surely, a German copy.

THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid that would not be any use to me. I do not know whether it is to all the members of the Prosecution. Have the Prosecuting Counsel any objection to passages being read from this document?

GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Mr. President, I did not know about the existence of this document, and I therefore strenuously object to having it read into the record.

I would wish that the procedure established by the Tribunal be observed by the Defense. The Prosecution, in the past, when presenting its evidence invariably presented copies of these documents to the Defense Counsel. Counsel for Hess is now presenting a completely unknown document, and the Prosecution, with every reason, would like to familiarize itself with this document beforehand. I do not know what secrets or what secret agreements Counsel for the Defense is talking about and on what facts he is basing his statements. I would therefore, to say the least, define them as unfounded. I request that this document should not be read into the record.

DR. SEIDL: The Prosecutor for the Soviet Union states that he has no knowledge of the existence d this secret document which shall be established by this affidavit. Under these circumstances I am compelled to move that Foreign Commissar Molotov of the Soviet Union be called as a witness, so that it can be established, firstly whether this agreement was actually concluded, secondly, what the contents of this agreement are, and thirdly...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the first thing for you to do is to have a translation of this document made, and until you have a translation of this document made the Tribunal is not prepared to hear you upon it. We do not know what the document contains.

DR. SEIDL: As to what the document contains, I already wanted to explain that before. In the document there is...

THE PRESIDENT: No, the Tribunal is not prepared to hear from you what the document contains. We want to see the document itself and see it in English and also in Russian. I do not mean, of course, you have to do it yourself, Dr. Seidl. If you would furnish this copy to the Prosecution they will have it translated into the various languages and then, after that has been, done, we can reconsider the matter.

DR. SEIDL: Very well. I turn then to another document, the reading of which can certainly raise no objections, because it is a document which has already been submitted by the Prosecution. It is the address made by the Führer to the Commanders-in-Chief of the Armed Forces on 22 August 1939. It was submitted by the Prosecution of the Soviet Union as 798-PS and as Exhibit Number US-29. I quote from Page 6 of the German photostat: "Thereupon Hitler declared . . ."

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got it in your document book or not, I mean just for convenience?

DR. SEIDL: The document was already submitted by the Prosecution in full.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean it is not here. I have not got the document before me. It is not in your document book?

DR. SEIDL: No, it is not in the document book because the Court has already ruled that each defendant's counsel has the right to refer to any document which has already been submitted by the Prosecution. I quote:

"...I have gradually brought about a change in our attitude towards Russia. In connection with the trade agreement, we got into a political conversation., Proposal of a non-aggression pact. Then came a general proposal from Russia. Four days ago I took a special step which had as a result that Russia answered yesterday she was ready for settlement. Personal contact with Stalin has been established. Von Ribbentrop will conclude the treaty the day after tomorrow. Now Poland is in the position in which I wanted her to be." End of the quotation.

Mr. President, Gentlemen: I had now the intention to call the witness Bohle 'who has already been approved by the Tribunal. The Defendant Hess, however, has asked me to forego the personal appearance of that witness and read an affidavit concerning the facts of evidence in reference to which the witness was to be heard.

I have prepared such an affidavit, and undoubtedly it would accelerate the proceedings if the Tribunal would permit the reading of this affidavit. If however, the Tribunal should have the opinion that. . .

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not had the opportunity of seeing the affidavit. As previously advised, if the witness covers the ground for which he was asked, I should want him for cross-examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Where is the witness?

DR. SEIDL: He is here. With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call the witness Bohle now.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean to call him or to read his affidavit?

DR. SEIDL: Yes, indeed; since Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe apparently protests against the reading of the affidavit, I would like to call the witness.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not seen the affidavit, of course, My Lord, so at the moment, as I say, if the affidavit covers the ground that the witness should speak upon, then I shall want to cross-examine him.

THE PRESIDENT: Unless the Prosecution are agreeable that the affidavit should be put in, the witness must be called, but if the Prosecution are agreeable to the affidavit being read and then the witness presented for cross-examination, the Tribunal is quite willing that it should be done.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not mind that in the least, my Lord. Of course, I am in slight difficulty not knowing what is in the affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps the best course would be for the Tribunal to have a 10-minute adjournment now, and you could perhaps just see what is in the affidavit.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is a pleasure, My Lord.

[ A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal did not wish to hurry counsel, but we thought we had better get on with other witnesses, and this document can be translated and considered and possibly dealt with after the main adjournment.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases, I have not had the chance of reading the translation. A preliminary view of the affidavit convinced my staff that it was not of very great importance, and I was going to consider whether the quickest way might be to let the affidavit be read, if the Tribunal would then permit me to read three documents which I was going to put in cross-examination to the witness. That might be more convenient than to take the course which Your Lordship suggests, of waiting until we have seen the full affidavit and then consider what would be the best way to deal with it.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you have perhaps seen part of the document, and you can perhaps judge better which would be the more convenient course. Whichever you think more convenient.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I am quite content if Dr. Seidl reads it, but it would have to be on the terms that the documents which I was going to put in cross-examination to the witness are read.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks he had better be called.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes; Dr. Seidl?

DR. SEIDL: If I understood the High Tribunal correctly, they do not wish to have the affidavit read but to have the witness interrogated before the Court.

THEPRESIDENT: Well, as soon as the .affidavit has been translated, and the Prosecution have had an opportunity of considering it, they can let us know whether they think it will be better to treat the affidavit as the examination of the witness, .and he must then be produced here for the purpose of cross-examination unless you prefer to examine him orally yourself.

DR. SEIDL: I believe that under these circumstances it would be best to call the witness immediately to the witness stand.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

[The witness Bohle took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you tell me your name?

ERNST WILHELM BOHLE (Witness): Ernst Wilhelm Bohle.

THEPRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath in German.]

DR. SEIDL: Witness, you were ultimately the leader of the Aus- lands-Organisation of the NSDAP? Is that correct?

BOHLE: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: You were also State Secretary of the Foreign Office?

BOHLE: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, Mr. Dodd of the American Prosecution just made the suggestion that, in order to save time, it might be possible to follow the same procedure as in the case of witness Blaha, that is, first of all, to read the affidavit in the presence of the witness arid then afterwards hear him in cross-examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.

DR. SEIDL [Turning to the witness.]: You made an affidavit which I shall now read to you. Concerning the matter:

"1. The Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP was founded on 1 May 1931 at Hamburg upon suggestion of some Germans abroad. Gregor Strasser, Reich Organization Chief at the time, appointed as its leader the NSDAP Member of the Reidtag, Dr. Hans Nieland.

"I myself became a volunteer assistant of the Auslands-Organisation in December 1931 and was taken into the Party on 1 March 1932. On 8 May 1933 Dr. Nieland resigned as leader of the Auslands-Organisation, having become in the meantime a member of the Hamburg Government and also, as a German who had always stayed at home, being less interested in questions concerning Germans abroad. On account of my experience and my connections abroad-I was born in England and raised in South Africa-I was charged with the leadership of the Auslands-Organisation.

"2. The purpose of the Auslands-Organisation was, upon the assumption of palver, to hold together in an organized way the approximately 3,300 Party members living outside the boundaries of Germany at the time of the seizure of power.

Further, through it Germans abroad, who could have only a vague idea of the political happenings at home, were to be taught the philosophy and the political program of the new state.

"3. Only German nationals could become members of the Party.

The acceptance of foreigners or former Germans who had acquired citizenship in another state was strictly prohibited.

"4. The guiding principle of the Auslands-Organisation of the Party concerning its attitude to foreign countries was found on the Ausland pass of every German national who was a member of the Party, in the following passage: 'Observe the laws of the country whose guest you are. Let the citizens of the country in which you stay take care of their internal politics; do not interfere in these matters, not even by way of conversation.' "This principle was basic for the work and the attitude of the Auslands-Organisation with respect to foreign countries from the day of its founding up to its end. I myself referred to this in many public speeches, and in so doing coined, among others, the phrase: 'The National Socialist honors foreign folkdom because he loves his own.' "My speeches in Porchester Hall in London on 2 0ctober 1937 and in Budapest at the end of January 1938 give a comprehensive, picture of the attitude of the Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP toward foreign countries.

"Winston Churchill in the late summer of 1937 repeatedly attacked the activity of the Auslands-Organisation in newspaper articles, and in his well-known article, 'Friendship with Germany,' in the London Evening Standard of 17 September 1937, designated it as an encumbrance on German-English relations. In the same article he said that he was ready to converse with me in the most cordial manner about this question. The German Embassy in London informed the Foreign Office at that time that a question by Churchill in the Hotise of Commons regarding the activity of the Auslands-Organisation would be extremely undesirable. As a result a meeting between Churchill and myself was advocated as urgent. This took place on the day of my speech to the Reich Germans in London, in Winston Churchill's London home, and lasted more than an hour. I had ample opportunity in this thoroughly cordial conversation to describe the activity of the Auslands-Organisation and to dispel his misgivings. At the end he accompanied me to my car and let himself be photographed with me, in order, as he said, to show the world that we were parting as friends. There was no inquiry in the House of Commons. From that day Churchill never uttered a word of objection again about the activity of the Auslands-Organisation. My speech of the same date, which was published shortly afterwards in English, in (pamphlet form by an English concern, was very favorably received. The Times published from it a lengthy excerpt under the heading 'Herr Bohle's Plea for an Understanding.' After this conversation Churchill wrote me a letter in which he voiced his satisfaction with the result of our conversation.

"6. In the trial of the murderer of the Landesgruppenleiter of the Auslands-Organisation in Switzerland, Wilhelm Gustloff, which was held in a Swiss court at Chur in 1936, the legality of the activity of the Auslands-Organisation was the subject of investigation by the court. The Defendant, David Frankfurter, was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment. From whst I remember, I can say that the Swiss authorities, who were in no way friendly to Nazis, had to testify that Gustloff and the Landesgruppen of the Auslands-Organisation had never in any way given reason for complaint with regard to their activity. The testimony of Federal Councillor Baumann, who, to my knowledge, was then Minister of the Interior and of the Police i,n Switzerland, was at that time decisive.

"7. I should further like to point out in this connection that also after the outbreak of the war the Landesgruppen of the Auslands-Organisation in neutral countries continued to function until the end of the war. That is especially true of Switzerland, Sweden, and Portugal.

"From 1943 on, at the latest, the Reich would hardly have been able to take any steps against suppression, if the Auslands-Organisation had come into conflict with the internal laws of these countries; and suppression would have been the inevitable result.

"8. Aside from the indisputable legality of the Auslands-Organisation, as its leader I have repeatedly expressed the idea that the Auslandsdeutschen (Germans abroad) would certainly be the last people who would let themselves be misused as warmongers or as conspirators against the peace.

From bitter experience they knew that with the outbreak of the war they would face at once internment, persecution, confiscation of property, and destruction of their economic existence.

"9. As a result of the knowledge of the situation abroad, no one knew better than the Auslandsdeutschen that any activity in the sense of a Fifth Column would be just as foolish as detrimental to the interests of the Reich. To my knowledge, moreover, the expression 'Fifth Column' can be traced back to the Spanish Civil War. It is in any case a foreign invention.

When Franco attacked Madrid with four columns of troops, it was asserted that a Fifth Column consisting of nationalist elements was doing its seditious work underground within the besieged city.

"10. There is no basis whatsoever for applying the term 'Fifth Column' to the Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP. If this assertion were true, it muld mean that members of the Auslands-Organisation working together with local oppositional elements in one or more foreign countries had been delegated, or had by themselves tried, to undermine this state from within. Any such assertion would be pure invention.

"11. Neither from the former Deputy of the Führer, Rudolf Hess, nor from me, as the leader of the Auslands-Organisation, has this organization or members of this organization in any way received orders the execution of which might be considered as Fifth Column activity. Even Hitler himself never gave me any directive in that respect. In summary, I can say that the Auslands-Organisation at no time, as long as I was its leader, displayed any activity in the sense of a Fifth Column. Never did the Deputy of the Führer give orders or directives to the Auslands-Organisation which might have led to such activity. On the contrary, Rudolf Hess most urgently desired that members of the Auslands-Organisation should under no circumstances take part in the internal affairs of the country in which they were living as guests.

"12. Of course, it is known that just as citizens of the then enemy countries, so also Germans were employed in the espionage and intelligence services abroad. This activity had however nothing at all to do with membership in the Auslands-Organisation. In order not to imperil the existence of Ihe Auslands-Organisation groups, which worked legally and entirely in the open, I constantly demanded that members of the Auslands-Organisation would not be used for such purposes or that I should previously be given the opportunity to relieve them of their functions within the Auslands-Organisation."

And that is the end of the statement of the witness Bohle. For the moment I have no questions to ask the witness, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the ddendants' counsel wish to ask the witness any questions? DR. FRITZ SAUTER (Counsel for Defendant Von Schirach): I would like to put several questions to this witness, Your Honor.

Witness, I represent the Defendant Von Schirach, the former leader of the German Youth. Therefore the following would interest me: Did the Hitler Youth (HJ) also exist in foreign countries or only in Germany?

BOHLE: The Hitler Youth existed among German nationals in foreign countries also.

DR. SAUTER: Please tell me whether this HJ, the Hitler Youth abroad, was subject to the political directives of the competent Landesleiter of the Auslands-Organisation, or is that not right?

BOHLE: Yes, the Hitler Youth abroad was politically under the control of the Hoheitstrager of the Party.

DR. SAUTER: Once in the course of the proceedings the assertion was made that members of the Hitler Youth were trained for service as agents and for espionage work abroad and also were used for these purposes. Specific facts, that is, specific instances, were certainly not mentioned, but only a general assertion was made, and it was also asserted that Hitler Youth abroad were even used as paratroopers, that is, that they had been trained at home as paratroopers in order to be used abroad in this capacity.

That is the assertion which I submit to you, and I now ask to have your opinion on this, whether, on the basis of your knowledge as the competent leader of the Auslands-Organisation, something like that did occur or whether anything like that was at all possible?

BOHLE: I would like to say the following in reply: I consider it entirely out of the question that members of the Hitler Youth abroad were misused in this way. I can assert that so much the more since I know I would have heard anything to the contrary from the leaders of the Party in the various foreign countries.

I know also nothing at all about the training of the Hitler Youth as paratroopers or anything similar. I consider these assertions as absolutely pure invention.

DR. SAUTER: Then I may assume, as the result of your testimony, that things of that sort on the basis of the entire organization would certainly have come to your knowledge, if something like that had occurred or perhaps even only had been planned; is that correct?

BOHLE: Yes, indeed.

DR. SAUTER: And then, Witness, I have a last question: Here in the courtroom a further assertion was also made about the HJ, that is, about the Hitler Youth. It has been asserted that at LVW it once happened that the Hitler Youth or members of the Hitler Youth had used Little children as targets. Also in this report no details of course were given, but only the assertion wag made. The following would interest me: As you know the Hitler Youth had, I believe, a membership toward the end of about 7 to 8 million.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, does that have anytkng to do with the Auslands-Organisation?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, it does insofar .as my client, the Defendant Von Schirach, is charged with the fact that the Hitler Youth abroad committed such atrocities.

THE PRESIDENT: It was not suggested that they did this abroad, was it-that Hitler Youth ever used children as targets abroad?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, indeed, it was said that at Lvov, in the Government General, not in Germany, but in Lvov, which means abroad.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean after the war began?

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: I thought this witness was speaking about the same organization before the war.

DR. SAUTER: I do not know whether he was also talking about the Auslands-Organisation during the war. But in any case, Mr.President, the witness knows these facts, for he was the head of the Auslanck-Organisation. Therefore this witness seems to me especially qualified to give us information on these matters.

THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that we are very far from the point, but you can go on.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President, for otherwise I would have to call expressly this witness for my client again.

Witness, do you at all recall the last question I put to you, whether you had any knowledge that the Hitler Youth, or members of the Hitler Youth abroad, which was under your jurisdiction, is supposed to have committed atrocities of that nature?

BOHLE: I regret to tell you, Mr. Attorney, that the Government General did not belong to the Auslands-Organisation, that I was never there and therefore am not in a position to state anything on that point. Obviously the erroneous opinion seems to exist that the Government General, from the point of view of the organization of the Party, was connected with the Auslands-Organisation; however that was not the case. I had no organizational powers there. .DR. SAUTER: Otherwise, I have no further questions.

DR. ROBERT SERVATIUS (Counsel for the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party): Witness, to what extent, in your capacity as Reichsleiter of the Auslands-Organisation, were you informed about the foreign political intentions of the Führer?

BOHLE: I was not Reichsleiter, but Gauleiter, and was never informed of the foreign political intentions of the Fuhrer.

DR. SERVATIUS: Do you know whether the Führer basically advocated to your organization an understanding with England?

BOHLE: I do not quite understand your question.

DR. SERVATIUS: Did Hitler, before the war, in your presence and before the other Gauleiter, frequently emphasize the fact that he wanted at all costs an understanding with England, and that you also were to work for its achievement?

BOHLE: I received no orders in this respect from the Führer, but certainly from the Deputy of the Führer. The Führer never discussed foreign political matters with me during the 12 years I was in office.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any members of the Defense Counsel want to ask any other questions?

LIEUTENANT COLONEL J. M. G. GRIFFITH-JONES (Junior Counsel for the United Kingdom): Your Auslands-Organisation was organized in the same way as the Party in Germany was organized; is that not so?

BOHLE: Not in all points, because there were various organizations within the body of the Party in the Reich which were not intended for foreign countries, for example, the Office for Municipal Policy.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Perhaps I can shorten my question: Did you have Hoheitstrager abroad in the same way as you had them in Gmany?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: The organization in each country was under the Landesgruppenleiter; is that correct?

BOHLE: In almost all countries.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: And under many there were lowerranking Hoheitstrager?

BOHLE: Yes, the Ortsgruppenleiter.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Was the result of that, that you had your German population in foreign countries well organized and known to the leaders in those countries? BOHLE: To a great extent that might be correct, but it was not SO thoroughly organized, nor could it actually be so, because the leader of the Party did not know all the Reich Germans in the country concerned.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did it never occur to you that in the event of your army's invading a country where you had a well-organized organization, that organization would be of extreme military value?

BOHLE: No, that was not the sense and the purpose of the Auslands-Organisation and no offices ever approached me in this connection.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Are you telling this Tribunal now that when the various countries of Europe were in fact invaded by the German Army your local organizations did nothing to assist them in a military or semimilitary capacity?

BOHLE: Yes, indeed.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well. Now, let me ask you about something else for a moment: You had, had you not, an efficient system of reporting from your Landesgruppenleiter to your head office in Berlin?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I think you have said yourself, did you not, in your interrogations, that you took an especial pride in the speed with which your reports came back?

BOHLE: I did not say that, I believe, with respect to speed but rather with respect to the accuracy of their political survey.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: In fact, your reports did come back with great speed, did they not?

BOHLE: I cannot say that in general. It depended on the possibility of dispatching these reports quickly to Berlin, and how far that was the case in individual instances, I naturally cannot say today. In any ease, I had no special speed or acceleration measures at my disposal.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: In fact, you told your interrogator -and I can refer you to it if necessary-that on occasion you got back information before Himmler or the Foreign Office had got similar information.

BOHLE: That must be a misunderstanding. It concerns the political reports from the Landesgruppenleiter which I transmitted from Berlin to the different offices.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well, we will leave the speed out. I have it from you that you had an efficient system of reporting, had you not?

BOHLE: In order to answer that question I would have to know in respect to what reports I am supposed to have had an efficient system of reporting.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: That was going to be my next question. I was going to ask you: What in fact did your Landesgruppenleiter report to you?

BOHLE: The Landesgruppenleiter reported of their own accord to me, whenever they had anything of importance which they wanted to report to the competent offices in the Reich.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did they ever report anything which might have been of military or semimilitary value?

BOHLE: That may have been the case in some instances, although at present I cannot recall any specific cases.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: They were never given any instructions, were they, to report that kind of information?

BOHLE: No, generally not.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: How did you get your reports back? Did you have wireless sets with your organization in foreign countries?

BOHLE: No, we did not have any such transmission or wireless stations. Reports either came through courier in special cases or were brought by individuals to. Germany.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: After the war started, did your organizations continue in neutral countries?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did they never have wireless sets reporting back information?

BOHLE: I do not know anything about that. I do not believe they had them, for I would have had to know about it.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Now, I want to ask you about only one or two documents. Would you look at 3258-PS-My Lord, that is the exhibit already in, GB-262; I have copies of the extract for the Tribunal and members of Defense Counsel. I expect you read English-the book itself is coming.

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: There you have before you a copy of some extracts from it. Would you look at the botbm of the first page, last paragraph, commencing "In 1938 ..." Did you have a Landesgruppenleiter in the Netherlands by the name of Butting?

BOHLE: Yes. LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Just pay attention to me for perhaps one moment before you look at that document. Do you know that Butting shared a house at The Hague with the military intelligence office? Do you know that?

BOHLE: No, I do not.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Now, I want to quote you quite shortly two paragraphs of this document, which is a report, published as an official United States publication, called "National Socialism, Basic Principles, Their Application by the Nazi Party's Foreign Organization, and The Use of Germans Abroad for Nazi Aims." I just want you to tell the Tribunal what you think first of all about this report, which is printed in that book:

"In 1938 the German Legation owned two houses in The Hague. Both were of course the subject of diplomatic immunity and therefore inviolable as concerned search and seizure by the Dutch police. I shall call the house in which Dr. Butting had his office House Number 2. What went on in House Number 2? It had been remodeled and was divided like a two-family house-vertically, not horizontally, but between the two halves there was a communicating door.

One side of the house was Dr. Butting's. The other half housed the Nazi military intelligence agent for Holland. ..." You say that you do not know anything about that?

BOHLE: Butting was Landesgruppenleiter of the Auslands-Organisation. I am hearing about this house-or these two houses for the first time, that is quite new to me.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well. I will just go on.

"S. B. (the military intelligence agent) may have had as many as a dozen subordinates working in Holland, all sub-agents of the Canaris bureau. These were professional spies who knew their trade. But they could not possibly know Holland as intimately as was required by the strategy of the German High Command, as it was revealed following the invasion of May 1940. For this, not a dozen but perhaps several hundred sources of information were necessary. And it is at this point that Butting and the military intelligence agent come together. Through his German Citizens' Association, Butting had a pair of Nazi eyes, a pair of Nazi ears, in every town and hamlet of the Netherlands. They were the eyes and ears of his minor Party officials. Whenever the military intelligence agent needed information concerning a corner of Holland which his people had not yet explored, or was anxious to check information relayed to him by one of his own people, he would go to Butting." Do you know whether Butting assisted the military intelligence agent in Holland in any way like that?

BOHLE: I was told later that he aided in Holland. To what extent he helped him I do not know, for he had had no such mission from me.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I understand, he had no instructions but he was doing it. Just turn now to the last paragraph on that page, too:

"'I know every stone in Holland,' S. B. once boasted, By 'stone' he meant canal, lock, bridge, viaduct, culvert, highway, by-road, airport, emergency landing field, and the name and location of Dutch Nazi sympathizers who would help the invading army when the time came. Had Dr. Butting's Party organization not existed under the innocent cover of his Citizens' Association, S.B.'s knowledge of Holland would have been as nothing compared with what it was. Thus the Citizens' Association served a double purpose; it was invaluable for espionage at the same time as it fulfilled its primary function as a Fifth Column agency." Do you know whether the members of your organization in Holland. were given instructions to learn about every canal, lock, bridge, viaduct, railway, and so on?

BOHLE: No, I had not the least idea of this.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well. I want you to be quite clear. I am putting to you that your organization was in the first place an espionage system reporting information of importance back to the Reich, and, in the second place, it was an organization aimed to help, and which did help, your invading German annies when they overran the frontiers of their neighboring states. Do you understand those two points?

BOHLE: Yes, indeed.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did your organization publish an annual book, your Year Book of the Foreign Organization?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: And did that book contain information as to the activities of your organization during the year?

BOHLE: Partially, yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I suppose that the Tribunal would be safe in assuming that what was published in that book was accurate information?

BOHLE: One may assume that. LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Will you look at the Year Book for 1942? I have copies of the extracts. Would you turn to Page 37 of that book? If you look back one or two pages in the book, you will find that that is an article entitled "The Work of the Norway Branch of the Auslands-Organisation in the War." Is that written by your Landesgruppenleiter in Norway?

BOHLE: I assume so, I cannot recall this.

'LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Will you look at Page 37, and you will see that there are some passages in the book that you have in front of you that have been lightly marked in pencil along the side.

BOHLE: yes, I have it.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Will you find the paragraph which starts, "Therefore, soon after the outbreak of war in September 1939..." Have you got that?

BOHLE: Yes, I have it.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Perhaps you will be so kind as to follow me.

"Therefore, soon after the outbreak of war in September 1939, the enlargement, and extension. . ."

BOHLE: Yes, I am following you.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: ". ..the enlargement and extension of the German Legation in Oslo and of the consulates at Bergen, Trondheim, Stavanger, Kristiansand, Hamgesund, Narvik and Kirkenes proved to be of primary importance.

This enlargement of the Reich agencies resulted in the local organization of the NSDAP in Norway having to increase its field of activity too, in the same proportion, in order to support the work of the Reich agencies, particularly by Party members and other Germans who had a thorough knowledge of the country and language." Why, in September '39, was it necessary for the Party to increase its organization in Norway with people having higher knowledge of the country and language? Answer me that before you read on. You need not worry about the rest; we are going to deal with it. Why was it necessary in 1939 to enlarge your organization?

BOHLE: In Norway, as far as I recall, there were only 80 members of the Party in all, and it goes without saying that after the outbreak of the war the official agencies, not only of Germany but also, as you know, those of other states, were enlarged and were assisted by national elements, who knew the country concerned. That did not hold true for Germany alone but for all the nations participating in the war.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes. I still do not understand why your perfectly harmless organization should have found it necessary to increase its membership with, people who had a profound knowledge of the language and the country. Why should the Auslands-Organisation have found it necessary?

BOHLE: Because the Reich agencies needed Germans who knew the country and the people, especially to furnish information on the German targets of attack in Norway-exactly what every other nation did, too.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, your answer is, is it, that you required them to tell you about targets in Norway? Is that your answer?

BOHLE: No, I did not say that. I said that they were to be at the disposal of the agencies in Norway in case they were needed for public enlightenment, that is for German propaganda purposes among the Norwegians. I would like to emphasize once again that that was done not only by Germany but, of course, by all the warring countries.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well, let us go on and see what happens next: "The choice and assignment of these supplementary collaborators was carried out by the local leader of the organization in close collaboration with the representatives of the Reich.

Therefore, from the first moment of the outbreak of war a great number of Party members were taken away from their jobs and employed in the service of the nation and the fatherland. Without any hesitation and without considering their personal interests, their families, their careers or their property, they joined the ranks and (devoted themselves body and soul to the new and often dangerous tasks." Tell me, was finding out and reporting about the Norwegian people, was that an "often, dangerous task"?

BOHLE: Certainly not.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: What, then, were the often dangerous tasks which your own Landesgruppenleiter is saying members of his organization were undertaking from the very moment war broke out, in September '39?

BOHLE: I cannot tell you anything about that, for I have no knowledge whatsoever about this and I cannot conceive any of these dangerous tasks. I have the impression from this article, which, incidentally I did not know about until now, that the Landesgruppenleiter had the plausible desire to give more importance to his organization than it had in reality.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: But you say you did not know about this. This appeared in the official yearbook of your organization. Did you never read what appeared in that book?

BOHLE: Certainly not everything, for I am not familiar with this article.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: You have told us that the members of your organization took no part in this. What about the people who were responsible for publishing that book? Did they not ever draw your attention to an article of that kind?

BOHLE: Obviously not.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Just look at the next little paragraph: "The success of their work, which was done with all secrecy, was revealed when, on 9 April 1940, German troops landed in Norway and forestalled the planned flank attack of the Allies." What work was revealed on the 9th of April? What work which had been done with all secrecy was revealed on the 9th of April, work carried out by members of your organization?

BOHLE: I am sorry I cannot reply, for I have no knowledge whatsoever of this. I do not know.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I see. Will you look down to the last paragraph of that page? It is the second sentence four, five lines down-at the end of the fifth line. I beg your pardon. You have the book in front of you. Will you look at Page 40 of the book? In the center of a paragraph the last word of one of the lines starts with "According to the task plan..." Have you got it? It: is Page 40. To save time, let me read it: "According to the task plan which had been prepared since the outbreak of the war, the Landeskreisleitung gave orders on 7 April for Phase 1of the state of employment.

"It does not sound, does it, like plans being made for different phases of an operation? It does not sound, does it, as if the work of your organization had been simply finding out about Norwegian people?

BOHLE: That might have been since this is entirely new to me, exclusively an agreement within the country itself with military or other authorities. I have had no knowledge of it up to this moment.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: So I understand you to say. But you were the head of this organization, were you not?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: You have come before this International Tribunal and given them evidence, presumably saying you are in a position to give them truthful and accurate evidence; is that so?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Do you understand that?

BOHLE: Yes, I have understood that.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, then, do I understand you to say now that you do not know what was happening in your organization, and therefore you are not in a position to give evidence as to whether or not it was a Fifth Column business?

BOHLE: It is quite evident that in an organization of this size the leader, who has his office at Berlin, cannot be closely acquainted with everything which is going on abroad and, more so, what is done against his instructions. I did not have the same disciplinary authority over my Party members abroad as did, for instance, some Gauleiter within the Reich. I need not elaborate on that, because it is self-evident. It is also evident, and this I know, that some Germans abroad, who were called on because of their patriotism in individual cases let themselves be used for purposes without the knowledge of the Auslands-Organisation and against its explicit instructions.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: In the interest of time we will not pursue that particular sphere of activity in Norway, just in case it may have been an exception which you did not know about.

Let me turn to something else. Will you look at Page 65 of that book?

Is that an article by your Landesgruppenleiter in Greece?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Is it in the form of a day-to-day diary of the activities of the Auslands-Organisation in Greece when German troops invaded that country?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Will you look at Page 65?

"Sunday the 27th of April. Swastika on the Acropolis." That is the heading. I beg your pardon. I do not know whether it comes directly under that heading. This is the Landesgruppenleiter talking: "I set out immediately, quickly visiting the other quarters," -where the German colony had been interned-"the Philadelphia and the Institute. I enjoined the inmates of the house in Academy Street to give up returning home today, and to hold themselves in readiness. After all, we did want to help the German troops immediately with our knowledge of the language and the district. Now the moment has come. We must start in immediately." Do you know. ..

BOHLE: Yes, I even know all about this. It certainly must be evident that the moment German troops occupied a foreign city and freed the Germans living abroad who had been interned, the latter would put themselves at the disposal of the German troops and help them in every respect as guides, interpreters, or the like. That is certainly the most logical thing in the world.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: That is in fact what they did do, and the assistance that your organization appears to have given them is that it managed to organize them and get them ready to do it; is that not so? That is what your Landesgruppenleiter seems to be doing?

BOHLE: I did not understand this question. Will you please repeat it?

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Do you understand that it is your Landesgruppenleiter who is organizing the members of your organization, organizing them so that they can give their assistance most beneficially to the invading armies?

BOHLE: That is a completely wrong way to express it. The Landesgruppenleiter in Greece, who filled that post from 1934, could not possibly tell whether there was to be an invasion of Greece or not. That had not the slightest thing to do with the nature of his organization. The moment that German troops were in the country it stands to reason that they would welcome their countrymen, act as their hosts, and help them in every way. That was a patriotic duty taken for granted.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I see.

Just turn to Page 66, the next page. Will you find the paragraph which commences "Meanwhile I organized the employment of all Party members to do auxiliary service for the Armed Forces." Do you have that?

BOHLE: I understand it. ..

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: You had better find the place.

BOHLE: Where shall I find that place?

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: On Page 66. It is a new paragraph.

BOHLE: Yes, I have it now. LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: "Meanwhile I organized the employment of all Party members to do auxiliary service for the Armed Forces." It really looks now as though the Landesgruppenleiter is organizing them, does it. not?

BOEILE: In this instance, yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: "Soon our boys and girls could be seen riding proud and radiant in their Hitler Youth uniforms, beside the German soldiers on motorcycles and in Army cars. ..." Did you yourself know of the organization and work that your Landesgruppenleiter had put in in Greece to assist your armies in semimilitary capacities, or was that another case Like Norway which you did not know anything about?

BOHLE: The Landesgruppenleiter in Greece did not create a semimilitary organization, but set up of course in this instance an organization to aid the troops entering the country in a sector which was entirely civilian.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well; I just want to ask you about another matter. Have you got a document there which is a telegram from somebody called Stohrer, in Madrid?

BOHLE: Stohrer, yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did Stohrer have something to do with the German Embassy in Madrid?

BOHLE: Stohrer was the German Ambassador himself; Doctor Von Stohrer.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: This is dated 23 October 1939. Just let us see what it says:

"The Landesgruppenleiter can obtain a very suitable house for accommodating the Landesgruppe, as well as the German Labor Front, the Ortsgruppe, the Hitler Youth, and the German House Madrid, also room available in case of embassy having to spread out, and especially a very suitable isolated room for the possible installation of second secret radio transmitter, which can no longer be housed at the school because of reopening.

"Landesgruppenleiter requests me to rent the house through the embassy, in which way very considerable tax expense will be avoided. Have no hesitation, in view of anticipated partial use by embassy as mentioned above. If you do not agree I request wire by return.

"Please submit also to Gauleiter Bohle."

Were you telling the truth to this Tribunal when you told them some 30 minutes ago that you had no knowledge of wireless sets being used by your organization?

BOHLE: Yes, because I have no knowledge of these transmitters, or their use; I must assume that it concerns apparatus of the embassy.

DR. SEIDL: The copy of the telegram, as I have it before me, does not indicate to whom this wire was addressed. The last sentence of the telegram leads one to assume that it was not in any case addressed to the witness. According to my opinion, I think the witness should next be asked whether he knew about this wire and to whom it was addressed.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Perhaps you will tell Dr. Seidl to whom the Ambassador in Madrid was likely to send a telegrah on such matters as this?

BOHLE: To the Foreign Office at Berlin.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: And you, at that time, were State Secretary at the Foreigh Office of Berlin, were you not?

BOHLE: Quite right, in October 1939.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Beneath his signature is set out the distribution to-it mentions various persons in departments in the Foreign Office in Berlin. Is that so?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: And are you saying now that of those departments which were asked to submit this matte.

you, that they all failed to do so?

BOHLE: No, I do not claim that. They surely would done that.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Do you remember yourself this telegram before?

BOHLE: I cannot recall it. I would have noticed it f heard anything about two secret transmitters in Spain also be quite in order for ma to admit it. But I cannot do not know it. The distribution under Number 3 me Secretary," but that does not mean me, but the State of the Foreign Office, the political one. My designation Office was: Chief A.O.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I can save you a suggesting that that "State Secretary" means you; not be asked to be submitted to you. What I want you or your embassy workers, or both of you wanted with two secret wireless transmitting sets in Spain in October 1939?

Are you still saying that your organization was quite unconcerned in reporting back information of military importance?

BOHLE: Just how do you mean, "reporting back"?

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Are you telling the Tribunal-I want you to be quite clear-are you telling the Tribunal that your organization was not being used for espionage purposes in Spain?

BOHLE: Yes indeed, I am asserting that. A distinction must be made between certain members of the Auslands-Organisation who naturally without my knowledge--I protested against this often enough-were used abroad for such purposes. I had no objection to Germans abroad being utilized in time of war for such tasks, as was the case very frequently with all other countries. However, I did hot want members or officials of the Ausiands-Organisation to become involved. A distinction must...

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I do not want to stop you at all.

I do not want to stop you. Go on if you have anything to say. But, in the interest of time, try and make it as short as possible.

BOHLE: It seems to me there is some confusion between the Auslands-Organisation as an organization and what certain Germans abroad did during the war as their patriotic duty. This seems to me to be the crucial point of the question.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, I will not argue about that.

We see that your organization took sufficient interest to reproduce accounts of what they were doing in its official book. I just want to show you one thing further.

[Turning to the President.] Well, I have one further document to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: You may as well go on.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: It is a document which I have just had found. I have not had them copied. The Tribunal will forgive me if I read extracts from them?

[Turning to the witness.] It is an original document you hold in your hand and it appears to be, does it not, a carbon copy of a letter from . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Has Dr. Seidl got one?

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes, he has one in German.

LTurning to the witness.] Is that a letter from your Landesgruppenleiter Konradi? BOHLE: It seems to be a directive from Konradi, but not signed by him.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If you will look at the end of the letter you will see that it is actually signed "Konradi," after the usual "Heil Hitler".

. .

BOHLE: The copy that I have is not signed.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Will you get that copy back? Perhaps these documents . . .

[The document was taken from the witness to Lt. Col. Griffith-Jones.]

It is in fact signed "Konradi." Show it to him.

[The document was returned to the witness.]

BOHLE: It is not signed by Konradi, but typed in.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I am very much obliged to you. It is my fault for not making myself clear. I told you that we have here a carbon copy. A copy of a letter which was signed and sent by Konradi. That appears to be so, does it not?

BOHLE: That I do not know, for of course I do not know about all the letters written by Konradi.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: You can take it, so far as you are concerned, that that is a German document which has been captured, that it is this bit of paper that you are holding in your hand which was found by Allied troops and that bears a typewritten signature of Konradi, who was your Landesgruppenleiter in Romania; is. that correct? You remember that you had a Landesgruppenleiter in Romania?

BOHLE: His name was Konradi.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: And is this a letter of instructions to the Zellenleiter in Constantsa?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT.COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: It is dated the 25th of October 1939.

you read the first paragraph?

"From 9 to 12 October conferences took, place with the Supreme Party functionaries, or their deputies, of the Southeastern and Southern European groups at the head office of the Auslands-Organisation." Does that mean Eerlin?

BOHLE: Yes. Berlin.

LT.COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: That means your office, does it,not?

BOHLE: Yes, in my office, but not in my personal office.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: No, but is it in the office over which you had complete control?

BOHLE: Yes.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Agreed. I imagine, before we go on, that no orders would be issued from your head office at a conference of that kind which were contrary to your direction, would they?

BOHLE: Not on important things, naturally not.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I am much obliged to you.

"I subsequently received direct instructions from the competent department of the head office of the Auslands-Organisation." So it appears that the direction given at the conference was confirmed in writing.

"During the war, every National Socialist abroad must directly serve the fatherland, either through propaganda for the German cause or by counteracting enemy measures." Now perhaps you will turn over, or rather, you will miss out-I am reading from copy-the English, the next paragraph, and the next plus one paragraph, and go on to the paragraph commencing: "As everywhere else it is extremely important to know where the enemy is and what he is doing..." I want you to be quite clear about this and keep it in mind.

These are directions coming directly from your head office in Berlin.

"It has been ascertained that the I.S. (Intelligence Service) has attempted, sometimes most successfully, to gain admittance for seemingly trustworthy persons into the activities of the Party group and its associate organizations. It is therefore necessary that you thoroughly investigate not only all those persons coming into contact with you who are not very well known to you, and above all you must scrutinize any new persons and visitors appearing in your immediate vicinity. If possible, let them be taken in hand by a comrade whose absolute Nazi convictions are not generally known to the man in the street...."

I think we can leave the rest of that.

"You are to report everything that comes to your notice, even though it may at first appear very insignificant. Rumors suddenly arising also come in this category, however false they may be."

DO you remember your members in Romania being told to report everything? Everything they saw?

BOHLE: Yes, of course.

LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: "An important section of both your work and that of your comrades' work must be industrial concerns, business enterprises, et cetera. Not only can you spread your propaganda very well in this way, but it is precisely in such concerns that you can easily pick up information concerning strange visitors. It is known that the enemy espionage organizations are especially active in industrial circles both in gathering information and carrying out acts of sabotage. Members with close connections with ship ping and forwarding companies are particularly suitable for this work. It goes without saying that you must be meticulous and cautious when selecting your assistants."

THE PRESIDENT: Do you have some more to read from this document? If so, we will adjourn now until 2 o'clock.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]