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M. DUBOST: “We consider that the trial of Krupp’s father is not possible at the present time. The trial of a dying old man who is unable to attend is out of the question. We are anxious that Krupp’s son should be prosecuted for there are very serious charges against him. We had asked up to this point that he should be prosecuted without any delay in the trial, but for reasons of expediency which led us to adopt this point of view, this has ceased to be a pressing problem since the Soviet Delegation has adopted the point of view of Mr. Justice Jackson. Consequently we no longer raise any objection, and we likewise have come to this point of view.”

THE PRESIDENT: Does what you say now mean that you wish Alfried Krupp to be substituted notwithstanding the fact that it must cause delay?

M. DUBOST: Yes, that’s right.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you suggesting on behalf of France that Gustav should be tried in his absence or not?

M. DUBOST: No, no, not that, no.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Volchkov): What does the French prosecutor and the French Republic offer so far as Gustav Krupp is concerned?

M. DUBOST: As to Krupp, the father, we consider it is not possible to prosecute him because of the state of his health; he will not be able to appear before the Court. He will not be able to defend himself. He will not be able to tell us about his acts. It is necessary to drop his case or to postpone the Trial to a time when he shall be cured, unless before that he appears before the judgment of God. We also believe, since we cannot obtain a second trial against the industrialists, that it is necessary to substitute Krupp, the son, against whom serious charges exist, for Krupp, the father, who cannot be tried.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you agree or disagree with the Attorney General for Great Britain that in the course of the Trial, whether Gustav Krupp or Alfried Krupp are included as defendants, the evidence against the industrialists of Germany must be exposed?

M. DUBOST: We have been anxious, Mr. President, that a second trial should be prepared immediately to follow the first trial in which the question of the industrialists would be thoroughly examined. Since it is not possible to have a second trial, we are anxious that one of the representatives of the Krupp firm, who is personally responsible and against whom there are charges, shall be called upon to appear before this Tribunal to defend himself against the charges that we shall bring against the Krupp firm, and in a more general manner also against the industrialists who were associated with the Krupp firm and who participated in the conspiracy which is presented in the Indictment, who supported the seizure of power by the Nazis, supported the Nazi Government and propaganda, financed the Nazis and finally helped the rearmament of Germany in order that it might continue its war of aggression.

THE PRESIDENT: Forgive me. I don’t think you have answered the question which I put to you. Do you agree with the Attorney General that whether Gustav Krupp or Alfried Krupp are or are not defendants in this Trial, the evidence against the German industrialists will necessarily be thoroughly exposed in the course of bringing forward the evidence of the conspiracy charged?

M. DUBOST: I agree that it is possible to bring the proof of a conspiracy without this or that member of the Krupp family being brought before the Court, but it will only be fragmentary proof and evidence, because there are personal responsibilities which go beyond the general responsibilities of the authors of the conspiracy, and these personal responsibilities are particularly attributable to Krupp the son and Krupp the father.

THE TRIBUNAL (M. De Vabres): You said just now that it was your opinion that the name of Krupp the son should be substituted for that of Krupp the father? Do you really mean the word “substitute”? Did you use this word intentionally or do you not rather wish to say that it was your opinion that there should be an amendment to the Indictment and that we should apply a supplement to the Indictment? Do you consider that you can propose to the Court to substitute one name for another in the Indictment or do you suggest on the contrary a supplement be added to the Indictment?

M. DUBOST: I have thought for a long time that it was necessary to propose an amendment to the Indictment. It is still my opinion, but it is not legally possible to modify the Indictment by a supplement.

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. Does counsel for the Defendant Gustav Krupp wish to address the Tribunal again?

DR. KLEFISCH: I deduce from the explanation of the Prosecution that the principal objection against our point of view is that it would not be in accordance with justice if the Trial were to be carried out in absence of Krupp senior. When, in representing the opposite point of view, it is pointed out that the public opinion of the entire world demands the trial against the defendant, Mr. Krupp, then the main reason offered is that Krupp senior is to be regarded as one of the principal war criminals. I have already pointed out that this reasoning would be an anticipation of the final judgment of the Court. It is my opinion, that this is not the place and the time to discuss these questions and I wish to limit myself to what I already said before: Namely, that all that has been said in this direction is for the moment only a thesis of the Prosecution, which, in the course of the Trial, will be confronted with an antithesis of the Defense, so that then the High Court can arrive at a synthesis of this thesis and antithesis and make a fair judgment.

One more point regarding this question:

It has also been pointed out that Krupp senior, could be tried in absentia for the reason that the entire evidence regarding the question of guilt has already been presented and was no secret. In view of the facts this is not correct.

So far we have seen only a part of the evidence, that is, that which is contained in the bundle of documents. But may I point out that from the firm of Krupp and the private quarters of the Krupp family, the entire written material which consisted of whole truck-loads was confiscated, and we did not see any of this material. Thus, the defense is difficult to undertake, since, due to the confiscation of this entire material, only the Defendant Krupp senior would be in a position to describe at least to a certain extent the documents necessary for his defense, so that they could be submitted in the regular form of application for evidence to this High Court.

As far as the question of an additional indictment against the son, Alfried Krupp, is concerned I wish to state first of all that I have not officially been charged with the defense of this defendant. I suppose, however, that I will be charged with the defense and that is why, with the permission of the Court, I wish to say a few words here about this motion, perhaps as a representative without commission. I do not know whether it is possible, that is, legally possible, subsequently to put Mr. Alfried Krupp on the list of the principal war criminals. However, even if I were to let this legal possibility open to discussion, I should like to call attention to the following:

In view of the changed situation, it seems to me to be a bit strange, to say the least, if Alfried Krupp were to be put on the list as a principal war criminal now, not because he was marked as one from the beginning, but because his father cannot be tried. I see in that a certain game played by the representative of the United States which cannot be sanctioned by the Court in my opinion.

In addition, I wish to make the following brief remark:

In case a supplementary indictment should be made against Alfried Krupp, and if I were definitely charged with his defense, my conscience would oblige me to request that the period of 30 days between the serving of the Indictment and the main Trial as provided in Rule 2 (a), would have to be kept under all circumstances.

Finally, I should like to point out the following:

In conclusion, I should like to emphasize that, so far as I am informed, the circumstances and facts regarding the person of Alfried Krupp are basically different from the circumstances concerning the person of the present defendant, Krupp senior. In the documents that have been put at our disposal so far, and which are bound in one volume, I have hardly found a single word about any complicity or participation of Alfried Krupp in the crimes with which Krupp senior is charged. I should also like to emphasize that, as has already been discussed, Alfried Krupp became the owner of the Krupp firm, I believe, only in November 1943 and that previously, from 1937 to 1943, he was merely director of one department of the entire concern, but in this capacity he did not have the slightest influence on the management of the firm, nor did he have anything to do with orders for the production and delivery of war materials.

For the reasons stated, I believe I am justified in expressing the wish to refrain from introducing Alfried Krupp into this Trial of the principal war criminals.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now and announce its decision on this application later.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 15 November 1945 at 1000 hours.]