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Chapter Four

The Flight from Rio de Janeiro to Rome

Pope Francis’s Meeting with Journalists

Sunday, July 28, 2013

The in-flight press conference from Rio de Janeiro back to Rome was both a surprise to the journalists on board and to the wider world. Having declared initially his reluctance to grant interviews, Pope Francis dedicated ninety minutes to answering questions on a wide-ranging set of topics, including the reform of the Roman Curia, the role of women in the Church, mercy, and even what his biggest surprise had been so far as pope.

The encounter with the journalists became the first major press event of the pontificate as the world’s media focused heavily on the pope’s comments regarding the need to reform the central government of the Church and the presence of a supposed “gay lobby” in the Vatican. One line, above all, caused an international sensation: “Who am I to judge?” The context of Pope Francis’s full meaning, of course, shows something very different from the assumptions of the secular press, but it was a taste of controversies to come.

Note, too, the way that Pope Francis anticipated the key issues facing the Extraordinary Synod on the Family (to be held in 2014), with its sometime volcanic discussions of Communion for the divorced and remarried.

Father Federico Lombardi

My dear friends, we are delighted to have the Holy Father, Pope Francis, with us on this return flight. He has been gracious enough to allow plenty of time to assess his visit with us and to respond in complete freedom to your questions. I shall ask him to give us a brief introduction, and then we will begin with the list of those who have asked to speak and whom we have chosen from various nationalities and languages. So, we turn the microphone over to you, Your Holiness, for your words of introduction.

Pope Francis

Good evening, and thank you very much. I am pleased. It has been a good trip. It has been good for me spiritually. I am quite tired, but my heart is full of joy. I am well, really well. Indeed, it has been good for me spiritually. Meeting people is good for me because the Lord works in each one of us, he works in our hearts. The Lord’s riches are so great that we can always receive many wonderful things from others. And this does me a lot of good. This is my first assessment.

Second, I would say that the goodness, the hearts of the Brazilian people are big, very big. They are a very loving people, a people who like to celebrate, who always find a way to seek out the good somewhere, even amidst suffering. This, too, is good: They are a joyful people, and they have suffered a lot. The joy of the Brazilian people is contagious. It really is! And these people have big hearts.

As regards the organizers, both on our end and on the Brazilian end, I would have to say that I really felt like I was sitting in front of a computer, a computer that had become incarnate! Really! Everything was so well timed, wasn’t it? It was wonderful. We had some problems with the plans for security: security here, security there. Yet, there wasn’t a single accident in the whole of Rio de Janeiro throughout these days, and everything was spontaneous.

With less security, I could have been with the people. I could have embraced them and greeted them without armored cars. There is a certain security in trusting people. It’s true that there is always the danger of some madman, the danger that some mad person will do something, but then, too, there is the Lord! But to make an armed space between a bishop and his people is madness. I prefer the other madness—to be out there and run the risk of the other madness. I prefer the madness of being out there! Closeness is good for us all.

As regards the overall organization of World Youth Day—the artistic element, the religious element, the catechetical element, and the liturgical element—all of it was wonderful! They have an ability to express themselves in art. Yesterday, for example, they did some very lovely things, truly lovely. Then, there is Aparecida. For me, Aparecida was a powerful religious experience. It reminded me of the Fifth Conference [the Fifth General Conference of the Latin American and Caribbean Bishops’ Conferences, CELAM, in Aparecida, Brazil, in 2007]. I went there to pray, to intercede. I wanted to go alone, somewhat hidden, but there was an impressive crowd! So this wouldn’t be possible: I knew this was the case before I arrived. Yet we prayed.

As regards your work, I’ve been told—I haven’t read the newspapers for the past few days because I didn’t have time, nor did I see any television, nothing—but they tell me that you did a really fine job, that your work was really good. Thank you! Thank you for your collaboration; thank you for doing all this.

Then, too, there was the number of young people. Today—I hardly believe it—but today the governor spoke of three million. I cannot believe it. But from the altar—it’s true! I don’t know whether you, or some of you, were up at the altar. From the altar, at the end of Mass, the whole beach was full, as far as the curve—more than four kilometers! There were so many young people. I was told—Archbishop [Orani João] Tempesta [of Rio de Janeiro] told me—that they came from 178 countries! The vice-president gave me the same figure, so it must be true. This is important! It’s amazing!

Father Lombardi

Thank you. Now we invite Juan de Lara to speak first, who is from Efe. He is Spanish, and it is the last journey he will make with us. So we are happy to offer him this opportunity.

Juan de Lara

Your Holiness, good evening. Along with all my colleagues, we would like to thank you for these days that you have given us in Rio de Janeiro, for all the work that you have done and all the effort you have put into them. Furthermore, on behalf of all the journalists from Spain, we want to thank you for your prayers for the victims of the train accident in Santiago de Compostela. Thank you very much.

The first question does not have much to do with the trip, but I would like to take the opportunity that this occasion offers to ask you: Your Holiness, in these four months of your pontificate, we see that you have created various commissions to reform the Curia. I want to ask you: What kind of reform do you have in mind? Do you foresee the possibility of suppressing the Institute for Works of Religion, the so-called Vatican Bank? Thank you.

Pope Francis

The steps I have taken during these four and a half months come from two sources. The content of what needed to be done—all of it—comes from the general congregations of the cardinals. There were certain things that we, cardinals, asked of whoever was to be the new pope. I remember that I asked for many things, thinking that it would be someone else! We asked, for example, for a commission of eight cardinals. We knew that it was important to have an outside body of consultants, not the consultation groups that already exist, but one from the outside.

This is entirely in keeping—and here I am making a mental abstraction, but it’s the way I try to explain it—with the maturing relationship between synodality and primacy. In other words, having these eight cardinals will work in favor of synodality. They will help the various episcopates of the world to express themselves in the government of the Church. There were many proposals that were made that have yet to be implemented, such as the reform of the Secretariat of the Synod and its methodology; the post-synodal commission, which would have a permanent consultative character; the consistories of cardinals with less formal agendas—canonization for example—but also other items, etc. So the source of the content is to be found there.

The second source has to do with present circumstances. I admit that it required a great effort on my part, during the first month of my pontificate, to organize the commission of the eight cardinals, which is an initial step. I was planning to address the financial aspect next year, because it is not the most important thing that needs to be done. But the agenda changed on account of circumstances that you know about, that are in the public domain. Problems arose that had to be dealt with.

The first problem had to do with the Institute for Works of Religion—namely, how to organize it, how to define it, how to reformulate it, and how to put right what needs to be put right. Hence, the origin of the first Commission of Reference, as it is called. You are familiar with the chirograph [an administrative document signed by the pope], what the aims are, who the members are, etc. Then we had the meeting of the commission of fifteen cardinals who follow the economic affairs of the Holy See. They come from all over the world. While we were preparing for this meeting, we saw the need to make a single Commission of Reference for the entire economic structure of the Holy See. In other words, the economic problem was not on the agenda when it had to be addressed, but these things happen when you’re in a position of governance: You try to go in one direction, but then someone throws you a ball from another direction, and you have to bat it back. Isn’t that the way it is? So, life is like that, but this, too, is part of the wonder of life. I repeat the question that you asked me about the Institute for Works of Religion—excuse me, I’m speaking Spanish. Excuse me; the answer came to me in Spanish.

Returning to the question you asked about the Institute for Works of Religion, I don’t know where the Institute for Works of Religion will end up. Some say that maybe it would be better as a bank, others say it should be an aid fund, others say it should be shut down. Well, that’s what people are saying. I don’t know. I trust the work being done by the personnel of the Institute for Works of Religion, who are working on this, as well as the members of the commission. The president of the Institute for Works of Religion is staying—the same one as before—whereas the director and vice–director have resigned. But I don’t know how all this is going to end up. But that’s fine, because we keep looking and we will come up with something. In this regard, we are human. We have to find the best solution. There’s no doubt about that. But the main characteristic of the Institute for Works of Religion [IOR, the Vatican Bank]—whether it should be a bank, an aid fund, or some other thing—is that it has to be one of transparency and honesty. It has to be. Thank you.

Father Lombardi

Thank you very much, Your Holiness. Now we move on to a representative from the Italian group. We have someone you know well—Andrea Tornielli—who will ask you a question on behalf of the Italian group.

Andrea Tornielli

Holy Father, I want to ask something perhaps a little indiscreet. As we set off, there was a photograph of you that went around the world where you are going up the steps of the plane carrying a black briefcase. Articles all over the world have commented on this new departure: the pope climbing the steps carrying his hand luggage, which has never happened before! So, there have been various suggestions about what the black bag contained. My questions are as follows: First, why were you carrying the black bag instead of a member of your entourage, and, second, could you tell us what was in it? Thank you.

Pope Francis

It wasn’t the code for the atom bomb! I was carrying it because that’s what I’ve always done. When I travel, I carry it. What was inside? There was a razor, a breviary, an appointment book, and a book to read. I brought one about St. Thérèse, to whom I have a devotion. I have always taken a bag with me when I travel. It’s normal. But we have to be normal. I don’t know; it seems a bit strange to me that you tell me the photograph made its way around the world. But we must get used to being normal—to the normality of life. I don’t know, Andrea, whether I have answered your question.

Father Lombardi

Now we will invite a representative from the Portuguese-language group to speak, Aura Miguel … from Radio Renascença.

Aura Miguel

Your Holiness, I want to ask why you are so insistent that people pray for you. It’s a little unusual to hear the pope asking people to pray for him so often!

Pope Francis

I have always made this request. When I was a priest, I asked for people to do so, but less frequently. I began to ask for prayers with greater frequency when I was a bishop, because I sense that if the Lord does not help me in this work of assisting the People of God to move forward, it won’t happen. I am truly conscious of my many limitations, my many problems, and I am a sinner—as you know! So, I have to ask for prayers. But it comes from within. I also ask Our Lady to pray to the Lord for me. It’s a habit, but a habit that comes from my heart and also a real need in terms of my work. I feel I have to ask. I don’t know—that’s just the way it is!

Father Lombardi

Now we move on to the English-language group, and we invite our colleague, Mr. Pullella from Reuters, here in front, to speak.

Philip Pullella

Your Holiness, on behalf of the English-language group, thank you for making yourself available. Our colleague, Juan de Lara, has already asked the one question we wanted to ask, but I would like to continue just a little further along the same lines. When you were seeking to make these changes [in the Curia], I recall that you told a group from Latin America that there are many saints working in the Vatican, but that there are also people who are a little less saintly. Didn’t you? Have you encountered resistance to your desire to change things in the Vatican? Have you met with resistance?

The second question is as follows. You live in a very austere manner: you have remained at Santa Marta, and so on. Would you like your collaborators, including the cardinals, to follow this example, and to live, perhaps, in community? Or is this something for you alone?

Pope Francis

The changes come from two sources: what we cardinals asked for, and what has to do with my own personality. You mentioned the fact that I remained at Santa Marta. I could not live alone in a palace even though it’s not luxurious. The papal apartment is not at all luxurious. It’s fairly large, but it’s not luxurious. However, I cannot live alone or with just a few people. I need people. I need to meet people and talk to people. That’s why when the children from the Jesuit schools asked me: “Why did you do that? For austerity, for poverty?” No, not at all. It was simply for psychological reasons because psychologically I can’t do otherwise. Everyone has to lead his own life, everyone has his own way of living and being. The cardinals who work in the Curia do not live wealthy, opulent lives: They live in small apartments that are rather austere—they really are austere, especially the ones with which I am familiar that APSA [the Administration of the Patrimony of the Apostolic See] provides for the cardinals.

It seems to me that there is something else I should say. Everyone has to live as the Lord asks him to live. But I think that austerity, austerity in general, is necessary for all of us who work in the service of the Church. There are many varieties of austerity, and each person must seek his own path. As regards the saints, it’s true. There are saints—cardinals, priests, bishops, sisters, and laypeople—who pray, people who work hard, and who also help the poor in hidden ways. I know of some people whose work it is to provide food for the poor, and then, in their free time, go to minister in this or that church. They are priests. There are saints in the Curia. And there are some who are not so saintly. These are the ones you tend to hear about. You know that one tree falling makes more noise than a whole forest growing. It pains me when these things happen. Then there are some who create a scandal, at least a few. We have one bishop who is in prison, at least I think he’s still in prison. He didn’t exactly go to prison because he was like Blessed Imelda; he was no saint. These are scandals, and they cause damage.

One other thing … I’ve never said this before, but I have come to realize it. I think that the Curia has fallen somewhat from the level it once had, in bygone days, where the typical profile of the members of the Curia of old was one of people who faithfully carried out their work. I feel we need such people. I feel there are some, but not as many as there once were. We need more people who fit this profile of the Curia members of old.

Do I encounter resistance? Well, if there is resistance, I haven’t seen it yet! It’s true that I haven’t done much, but I would have to say that I have found help, and I have found loyal people. For example, I like it when people say to me, “I don’t agree,” and indeed I have encountered this. Or when people say: “But I don’t see that way. I disagree. This is what I think, but do as you wish.” These are truly co-workers. Moreover, I have found people like this in the Curia, which is good. But when people tell me, “Oh, how wonderful, how truly wonderful,” and then say the opposite somewhere else … I have yet to come across this. Maybe it happens. Maybe there are some people like this, but I’m not aware of them. Resistance? After just four months, you won’t find that much!

Father Lombardi

We’ll now move on to someone from Brazil, which seems only fitting. So here is Patricia Zorzan. Perhaps Mr. Izoard could come forward, so that we can have a French speaker next.

Patricia Zorzan

Speaking on behalf of Brazilians, society has changed. Young people have changed, and in Brazil we have seen many young people. You did not speak about abortion or about same-sex marriage. In Brazil a law has been approved which widens the right to abortion and permits marriage between people of the same sex. Why did you not address these issues?

Pope Francis

The Church has already spoken quite clearly on these matters. It was unnecessary to return to these issues, just as I didn’t speak about cheating, lying, or other matters on which the Church has a clear teaching.

Zorzan

But these are issues that interest young people.

Pope Francis

Yes, but it wasn’t necessary to speak about them, but rather about the positive things that open up the path to young people. Isn’t that right? Besides, young people know perfectly well what the Church’s position is.

Zorzan

What is Your Holiness’ position, if I may ask?

Pope Francis

That of the Church. I am a son of the Church.

Father Lombardi

Well, now let’s return to the Spanish group, Dario Menor Torres. Excuse me. First of all, Mr. Izoard, whom we have already called forward, so that we have someone from the French group, and then Dario Menor Torres!

Antoine-Marie Izoard

Greetings, Your Holiness, on behalf of my French-speaking colleagues on board this flight—of whom there are nine of us! For a pope who does not want to give interviews, we are truly grateful to you. Since March 13, you have notably insisted on introducing yourself as the Bishop of Rome. We would like to understand the deeper significance of such an insistence. Rather than collegiality, are we perhaps speaking about ecumenism, perhaps of your being the primus inter pares [“first among equals”] of the Church? Thank you.

Pope Francis

Indeed, in this regard we must not go beyond what is said. The pope is a bishop, the Bishop of Rome, and because he is the Bishop of Rome he is the Successor of Peter, Vicar of Christ. There are other titles, but the first title is “Bishop of Rome,” and everything flows from that. To say or to think this means being primus inter pares, no, this does not follow. It is simply the pope’s first title: Bishop of Rome. But there are others, too. I think you said something about ecumenism. I think this actually helps ecumenism. But only this…

Father Lombardi

Now, Dario Menor of La Razón, from Spain.

Dario Menor Torres

A question about how you feel. A week ago you mentioned that a child had asked you how it felt, whether someone could imagine being pope, and whether anyone would want to be pope. You said that people would have to be mad to want such a thing. After your first experience in the midst of a great multitude of people such as you encountered during these days in Rio, can you tell us how it feels to be pope—whether it’s very hard, whether you are happy to be pope, whether in some way your faith has grown, or whether, on the contrary, you have had some doubts. Thank you.

Pope Francis

To do the work of a bishop is a wonderful thing; it’s wonderful. The problem arises when someone seeks out such work. Such a thing is not so good; it is not from the Lord. But when the Lord calls a priest to become a bishop, this is something good. There is always the danger of thinking oneself a little superior to others, not like others, somewhat like a prince. There are dangers and there is sin. But the work of a bishop is wonderful: it is to help one’s brothers and sisters move forward. The bishop is ahead of the faithful to mark out the path; the bishop is in the midst of the faithful to foster communion; and the bishop is behind the faithful, because the faithful can often sniff out the right path. The bishop must be like that.

You asked me whether I like it. Yes, I like being a bishop. I like it. In Buenos Aires I was very happy, very happy! I was happy; it’s true! The Lord helped me in that. But as a priest, I was also happy, and as a bishop, I was also happy. In this sense I say: I like it!

Question from the floor

And as pope?

Pope Francis

Likewise, likewise! When the Lord puts you there, and if you do what the Lord wants, you are happy. This is my feeling. This is how I feel.

Father Lombardi

Now another representative from the Italian group: Salvatore Mazza of Avvenire.

Salvatore Mazza

I can’t stand up! Excuse me, I can’t stand up because of all the wires I have under my feet!

During the past few days we’ve seen you full of energy, even until the late hours of the evening. We are watching you now on board the aircraft that is tilting from side to side, and you’re calmly standing there, without the least bit of hesitation. We would like to ask you the following question. There is talk about future trips. There is a lot of talk about Asia, Jerusalem, and Argentina. Do you already have a more or less definite schedule for next year? Or has everything yet to be decided?

Pope Francis

Definite? Nothing is definite. But I can say something about what is being planned. One thing that is definite is September 22 in Cagliari [in Italy]. Then, October 4 in Assisi. Within Italy, I have a plan in mind to go and visit my relatives for a day, flying there one morning and returning the next morning, because, bless them, they call me and we have a good relationship. But only for one day. Outside of Italy, Patriarch Bartholomew I wants to have a meeting to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of the meeting between Athenagoras and Paul VI in Jerusalem. The Israeli government has also issued a special invitation to go to Jerusalem. I think the government of the Palestinian Authority has done the same. This is what is in the pipeline, but it is not yet clear whether I’m going or not going.

As regards Latin America, I don’t think there is a possibility of returning, because for this Latin American pope, his first journey has been to Latin America! That’s enough! We have to wait a little now! I think I could go to Asia, but this is all up in the air. I have been invited to go to Sri Lanka and also to the Philippines. However, I must go to Asia because Pope Benedict [XVI] did not have time to go to Asia, and it is important. He went to Australia and then to Europe and America, but not to Asia. As regards going to Argentina. I think this can wait for a moment because all these trips have a certain priority. I wanted to go to Istanbul on September 30 to visit Bartholomew I, but that won’t be possible because of my schedule. If we meet, it will be in Jerusalem.

Question from the floor

Fatima?

Pope Francis

Fatima? There is also an invitation to Fatima, that’s true. There is an invitation to go to Fatima.

Question from the floor

September 30? Or November 30?

Pope Francis

November. The feast of St. Andrew.

Father Lombardi

Now we move to the United States and invite Hada Messia from CNN to ask you a question.

Hada Messia

Hello! You’re coping better than I am! My question is as follows. When you met the young people from Argentina, maybe with tongue in cheek or maybe seriously, you told them that you, too, at times, feel penned in. We would like to know what exactly you were referring to.

Pope Francis

You have no idea how many times I’ve wanted to go walking through the streets of Rome, because, back in Buenos Aires, I loved to go walking around the city! In this sense, I feel a little penned in. But I have to say that the guys over at the Vatican Gendarmerie are so good! They’re really, really good, and I am grateful to them. Now they’re letting me do a few more things. I believe their job is to maintain security, so I feel penned in in that sense. I’d like to go out walking, but I understand that it isn’t possible. I understand this. That was what I meant. Because I used to be—as we say in Buenos Aires—a callejero, a street priest.

Father Lombardi

And now we call on another Brazilian, Marcio Campos. I also ask Mr. Guénois to come up for the next question for the French.

Pope Francis

I was asking what time it is, because they have to serve supper. But are you all hungry?

Background

No, no….

Marcio Campos

Holy Father, I want to say that whenever you miss Brazil, the joy of the Brazilian people, hold on to the flag I gave you! I would also like to thank my colleagues at the daily newspapers Folha de São Paulo, Estado, Globo, and Veja for being able to represent them with this question. Holy Father, it is difficult to accompany the pope, very difficult! We’re all tired. We’re exhausted, but you’re going strong! In Brazil, the Catholic Church has lost a number of the faithful during these past few years. Is the charismatic renewal movement one possible way for ensuring that the faithful do not go over to the Pentecostal church or other Pentecostal churches? Thank you very much for your presence, and thank you very much for being with us.

Pope Francis

What you’re saying about the fall in numbers among the faithful is very true. It’s true. The statistics are there. We spoke with the Brazilian bishops about this problem at a meeting we held yesterday. You asked about the charismatic renewal movement. I’ll tell you one thing. Back at the end of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, I had no time for them. Once, speaking about them, I said: “These people confuse a liturgical celebration with samba lessons!” I actually said that. Now I regret it. I got to know them better. It’s also true that the movement, under good leadership, has made great progress. I think this movement does a lot of good for the Church overall. In Buenos Aires, I met frequently with them and once a year I celebrated a Mass with all of them in the cathedral. I have always supported them after I was converted and after I saw the good they were doing.

Because at this time in the Church—and here I’ll make my answer a little more general—I believe that the movements are necessary. The movements are a grace of the Spirit. “But how can you control a movement which is so free?” The Church is free, too! The Holy Spirit does what he wants. He is the one who creates harmony. But I do believe that the movements are a grace—those movements which have the spirit of the Church. Consequently, I don’t think that the charismatic renewal movement merely prevents some people from passing over to Pentecostal denominations. No! It is also a service to the Church herself! It renews us. Everyone seeks his own movement, according to his own charism, where the Holy Spirit draws him or her.

Pope Francis

Now I’m tired!

Father Lombardi

Now Mr. Guénois from Le Figaro.

Jean-Marie Guénois

Holy Father, one question along with my colleague from La Croix: You have said that without women, the Church grows barren. What concrete measures will you take? For example, the diaconate for women? Or a woman as a head of a dicastery? Also, a little technical question…. You said you were tired. Have special arrangements been made for the return flight? Thank you, Your Holiness.

Pope Francis

Let’s begin with the last question. This plane doesn’t have any special accommodations. I’m sitting up front. I have a nice seat, a normal seat, the same as everyone else. I had them write a letter and make a phone call to say that I did not want any special arrangements on the plane. Is that clear?

Second, about women. A Church without women is like the college of the apostles without Mary. The role of women in the Church is not simply that of motherhood, of being mothers. It’s much greater. More precisely, it is to be the icon of the Virgin Mary, of Our Lady, who helps the Church to grow! Think about it: Our Lady is more important than the apostles! She is more important! The Church is feminine. She is Church; she is bride; she is mother.

But women, in the Church, must not only be—I don’t know how to say this in Italian—the role of women in the Church must not be limited to being mothers, workers, a role that is limited. No! It is something else! Pope Paul VI wrote something beautiful about women, but I believe that we have much more to do in making more explicit the role and charism of women. We can’t imagine a Church without women, but women active in the Church, with the distinctive role that they play to move it forward.

I can think of an example that has nothing to do with the Church, but is a historical example in Latin America, in Paraguay. For me, the women of Paraguay are the most glorious women in Latin America. Are you from Paraguay? After the war, there were eight women for every man, and these women made a rather difficult decision: the decision to bear children in order to save their country, their culture, their faith, and their language. In the Church, this is how we should think of women: taking risky decisions, yet as women. This needs to be better explained.

I believe that we have not yet come up with a deep enough theology of womanhood in the Church. All we say is that they can do this and they can do that. Now they can be altar servers, they can do the readings, they can be in charge of Caritas. But there is more! We need to develop a profound theology of womanhood. That is what I think.

Father Lombardi

From the Spanish group, we now have Pablo Ordaz of El País.

Pablo Ordaz

We would like to know about your working relationship—not just your relationship of friendship, but that of collaboration—with Benedict XVI. There has never been a situation like this before. Are the two of you frequently in contact, and is he helping you in your work? Thank you.

Pope Francis

I think the last time there were two popes—or even three popes!—they weren’t speaking to one another. They were fighting over who was the true pope! We ended up with three popes during the Western Schism.

There is one thing that describes my relationship with Benedict: I have such great affection for him. I have always loved him. For me, he is a man of God, a humble man, a man of prayer. I was so happy when he was elected pope. Moreover, when he resigned, for me it was an example of greatness. He is a great man. Only a great man does such a thing! A man of God and a man of prayer.

Now he is living in the Vatican, and there are those who tell me: “How can this be? Two popes in the Vatican! Doesn’t he get in your way? Isn’t he plotting against you?” All sorts of things! I have found a good answer for this: “It’s like having your grandfather in the house—a wise grandfather.” When families have a grandfather at home, he is venerated, he is loved, and people listen to him. Pope Benedict is a man of great prudence. He doesn’t interfere! I have often said to him, “Holiness, receive guests, lead your own life, come along with us.” He did come for the unveiling and blessing of the statue of St. Michael. So, my response says it all.

For me it’s like having a grandfather at home: my own father. If I have a problem or something I don’t understand, I can call him on the phone: “Tell me, can I do this?” When I went to talk with him about that big problem, Vatileaks, he explained everything with great simplicity in order to be helpful.

I don’t know whether you are aware of this. I believe you are, but I’m not certain. When he spoke to us in his farewell address, on February 28, he said: “In your midst is the next pope: I promise him obedience.” He is a great man; this is a great thing!

Father Lombardi

Now it is the turn of a Brazilian once again; Ana Ferreira, followed by Gian Guido Vecchi from the Italian group.

Ana Ferreira

Good evening, Holy Father. Thank you. I would like to thank you for several things. Thank you for having brought so much joy to Brazil, and thank you, too, for answering our questions. We journalists really like to ask questions. Since you spoke yesterday to the Brazilian bishops about the participation of women in our Church, I would like to know and to better understand what this participation of us women in the Church should look like. Also, what do you think of women’s ordination? What should our position in the Church be like?

Pope Francis

I would like to explain a bit more what I said about women’s participation in the Church. It can’t simply be limited to serving as altar servers, presiding over Caritas, serving as catechists. No! They have to be something more, something profoundly more, even mystically more, along the lines of what I said about the theology of womanhood. And, as far as women’s ordination is concerned, the Church has spoken and said, “No.” John Paul II said it, but in more definitive terms. That door is closed.

Nonetheless, I would like to say something in this regard. I’ve already said it, but I’d like to repeat it. Our Lady, Mary, was more important than the apostles, than the bishops, deacons, and priests. Women in the Church are more important than bishops and priests. How? This is something we have to try to explain better, because I believe that we lack a theological explanation of this. Thank you.

Father Lombardi

Gian Guido Vecchi, from Corriere della Sera. Then I would ask Mrs. Pigozzi and Nicole to come forward.

Gian Guido Vecchi

Holy Father, during this visit you have spoken on several occasions about mercy. With regard to the reception of the sacraments by the divorced and remarried, is there the possibility of a change in the Church’s discipline so that these sacraments might be an opportunity to bring these people closer together rather than a barrier separating them from the other faithful?

Pope Francis

This topic frequently comes up. Mercy is something much larger than the one case you raise. I believe that this is a time of mercy. The new era that we have entered, along with the many problems in the Church, such as the poor witness that some priests have given, problems of corruption in the Church, and the problem of clericalism, just to cite a few examples, have hurt so many people, have left so much hurt behind. The Church is a mother: she has to go out to heal those who are hurting, with mercy. If the Lord never tires of forgiving, we have no other choice than this: first of all, to care for those who are hurting. The Church is a mother, and she must travel along this path of mercy, and find mercy for all. When the prodigal son returned home, his father didn’t say: “Sit down and listen. What did you do with the money?” No! He celebrated! Then, perhaps, when his son was ready to talk, he spoke to him. The Church has to do this: not only wait for them, but go out and find them! That is what mercy is about.

Moreover, I believe that this is a kairos: this time is a kairos of mercy. John Paul II had the first intuition of this when he started reading about Faustina Kowalska and the Divine Mercy. He was on to something. He perceived that this was a need in our time. With reference to the issue of giving Communion to people in a second marriage—people who are divorced can receive Communion, that’s not a problem, but when they’re in a second marriage, they can’t. I think we need to look at this within the larger context of pastoral care within marriage. So, it is a problem. Parenthetically, though, the Orthodox have a different practice. They follow the theology of what they call oikonomia. They give a second chance; they allow it. But I believe that this problem—here I close the parenthesis—must be studied within the context of pastoral care within marriage.

In this regard, two things: First, one of the themes to be examined with the eight members of the Council of Cardinals, with whom I will meet from October 1-3, is how to move forward in the area of pastoral care within marriage, and this problem will come up there. Second, two weeks ago, the secretary of the Synod of Bishops met with me about the theme for the next synod. It was an anthropological theme. But talking it over, going back and forth, we saw this anthropological theme more clearly: How does faith help a person with his plan in life, specifically in the family, which leads, therefore, to pastoral care within marriage? We are moving toward a somewhat deeper concept of pastoral care within marriage.

This is a problem that concerns us all, because there are so many problems like this, are there not? For example, I will only mention one. Cardinal [Antonio] Quarracino, my predecessor, used to say that as far as he was concerned, half of all marriages are null. Why did he say this? Because people get married lacking maturity, they get married without realizing that it is a lifelong commitment, they get married because society tells them they have to get married. This is where pastoral care within marriage also comes in. Then there is also the legal problem of the nullity of marriages. This has to be reviewed, because there are not enough ecclesiastical tribunals for this. The problem of the pastoral care within marriage is complex. Thank you.

Father Lombardi

Thank you. And now we have Mrs. Pigozzi, from Paris Match, also from the French group.

Carolina Pigozzi