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Chapter Two: The Brick Wall or Does This Sound Familiar?

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Setting: Cafeteria

Eve and Justin: Two acquaintances, each deeply committed to their faiths.

Eve: (softly singing) “There’s a sweet, sweet Spirit in this place, and I know that it’s the Spirit of the Lord.” That was an awesome worship service last night! The Presence of the Lord was so strong … Oh, it’s my turn. “I’ll take the chicken please, and can I have extra vegetables? Thanks.” (Eve picks up her tray and walks into the lunchroom). Now, where am I going to sit? Jesus, please direct my path, just like we talked about last night. I want to be a fisher of men for Your glory.

Justin: (looking up) “Hi, Eve. Are you waiting for someone, or would you like to join me?”

Eve: (smiling) “I’d love to join you, Justin. Thanks.” (She sets her tray down). “That’s a huge project we’ve been working on. I was glad to get a break from it over the weekend. Um … I always say grace, so please excuse me for a minute.” (Eve bows her head and silently prays): Dear Father, Thanks for this food. Please bless it. And please help me and anoint me to share Christ with Justin. He always seems so nice and maybe even open to spiritual things… but I’ve heard he’s MORMON. Jesus, I love you, and I want to share Your love. Holy Spirit, give me the words to say that will minister to Justin’s heart, and draw him to the Lord. In Jesus’ Name. Amen. “So, how was your weekend?”

Justin: “It was great. I went to the temple with my family.” I really want to bear testimony to Eve. She’s such a good person, and we share so many of the same values.

Eve: “Temple?” HOLY SPIRIT, HELP ME!!!!!

Justin: Heavenly Father, please help me bear pure testimony, in Jesus’ name. “Yes, the temple is a place where we can learn about Heavenly Father’s plan, and receive special ordinances so that we can return to live with Heavenly Father again. We can be sealed and our families can be together forever. My brother came with us. It was a very special time.”

Eve: Families together forever? What’s he talking about families for? I want to talk about Jesus! ‘Heavenly Father’? That sounds so stilted. God’s not distant and uncaring! Yikes! I wonder if he even knows God? What was it that I heard about Mormons … that they put their trust in Joseph Smith and don’t believe the Bible? I don’t think that’s right. Justin seems OK to me… “Um … what was that about ‘Heavenly Father’s plan’?”

Justin: “There’s a reason we’re here on earth. Heavenly Father wanted us to have the opportunity to have joy and become more like Him. This plan is described in the scriptures. “This is My work and My glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” Dear Father, may Eve feel the Spirit as we talk.

Eve: Become more like God? That sounds horrible. Wait a minute … Maybe he means we’re supposed to become more like Christ. That would be OK. What else did Justin say? What’s the difference between immortality and eternal life? I have no idea what he’s talking about. At least he mentioned God. But he hasn’t even mentioned the name of Jesus yet! Maybe I can try to understand some of the basics of his beliefs, to help him come to Jesus. “Um … do you know Jesus?”

Justin (hesitates, confused): How can someone be so bold as to claim to completely know the Savior? Isn’t that presumptuous? I certainly don’t want to fall into pride …but I want Eve to know I’m thankful for Christ’s Atonement… “Well, uh, yes …”

Eve: If Justin knew anything at all about Jesus, he would have immediately answered with a strong “Yes!” I heard Mormons aren’t Christians, but I’ve known Justin for awhile, and I think he knows at least a little bit about what Jesus did for us. … “Are you born again? Have you been saved?” It’s OK if he has some weird beliefs, as long as he’s born again. If Justin knows he’s saved, if he’s got the assurance of his salvation, then that means he’s repented of his sins and placed his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Then he’s a Christian, no matter what church or denomination he attends.

Justin: How can I be so prideful to say that I am guaranteed entrance into the Celestial Kingdom? I know the Atonement of Christ will cleanse me if I repent of my sins and bring forth fruits showing repentance. But I cannot be absolutely sure that I will not sin again. I don’t want to be boastful. I’d better be positive, yet stay on safe ground … “I hope so.”

Eve: ‘I hope so??’ There is no way Justin can be a Christian if he doesn’t even understand the plan of salvation. That must be why he’s hesitating when he answers these simple basic questions. Lord, how can I help him understand that you must repent of your sins and place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? “Justin, if you were to die tonight, what do you think would happen to you?”

Justin: “Well, I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…”

Eve: It doesn’t matter what name you stick on the door of your church. What matters is if you personally place your faith in Christ! This is the first time he’s even mentioned the Name of Jesus. If Justin knew and loved Jesus, he wouldn’t talk about his church, he’d talk about Jesus! Dear God, Justin’s farther from You than what I thought!

Justin: “ … and we believe that the Atonement of Christ has provided immortality for all mankind, and eternal life for those who will repent and come unto Christ. The temple is a holy place where we can go and make eternal covenants so we can return and live with Heavenly Father with our families forever.” This is a really good opportunity to bear my testimony. I wonder why Eve looks so stressed? Why does this seem so hard? Why do I feel this confusion? Heavenly Father, help me. I pray in Jesus’ name.

Eve: ‘The Atonement of Christ’? ‘Come unto Christ’? – Justin sounds like he’s trying to distance himself from Jesus! If he knew Jesus, he’d know how loving He is, how awesome He is. He’d want to draw near to Him! OK, I’ve got to calm down. Anger does not achieve the purposes of God. Remember God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. The Lord loves Justin, and He loves me. Love is the only way to reach someone. If I can remember this, I can stay calm. Jesus, help me!

Justin: I want to bear strong testimony. “I know Jesus is the Christ.” Why do I feel this tension? Eve’s not getting angry or contentious. I know that she’s the same sect – she’s the same religion as Michael, and he got furious when I tried to bear testimony to him last month. I want to keep this simple and peaceful so that Eve can feel the Spirit as we talk.

Eve: OK, it looks like maybe Justin knows something about Jesus. But why would he say ‘Jesus is the Christ’? That’s so weird sounding. He also mentioned our Heavenly Father. I believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost, which is one God. I think I read that Mormons don’t believe in the Godhead. “Do you believe in the Trinity?”

Justin: No. Heavenly Father is separate and distinct from Jesus Christ. The Savior is a separate and distinct Personage from the Holy Spirit. Of course They are united as one in purpose; They work in deep covenant together. They are all part of the Godhead. But there is no way They are all blended together in some nebulous oneness called ‘the Trinity.’ “No. We don’t believe in the Trinity.”

Eve: Yikes! O dear God, help me stay calm, and remember that Justin is Your kid, and You love him … If he doesn’t believe in the Trinity, I wonder which Person of the Godhead he doesn’t believe in? He mentioned God the Father. He talked about the Atonement of Christ, so he must know something about Jesus. He probably doesn’t know the Holy Spirit, because he hasn’t talked about Him yet. But lots of Christians don’t really know the Holy Spirit. I remember I didn’t really recognize the Holy Spirit until a couple of years after I got saved. But every Christian believes in the Trinity. Justin must have this view of God as some gaseous spirit-like substance that morphs back and forth between the three Persons of the Godhead. He must believe in some kind of untouchable spirit-cloud mass of weird God Beings. That’s gross. Lord, how can I help him understand the Trinity? If I focus on Jesus, maybe I can help him see how awesome the Lord is, and His incredible plans for us. “What do you believe about Jesus?”

Justin: “He is the Christ. He is the Savior. Through the Atonement, He has provided immortality for all mankind. Lord, help Eve feel the Spirit.

Eve: Why does Justin call Him ‘the Christ’ and ‘the Savior” instead of “Jesus” “our Lord” or “my Savior”? It sounds so standoffish and aloof. He must not understand the awesome price that Jesus paid for us at Calvary, because he keeps saying ‘the Atonement.’ Why would he want to distance himself from Jesus? Hasn’t Justin felt Jesus close to him at times? And what’s this ‘immortality for all mankind’ he keeps talking about? How can anyone in their right mind believe that Jesus automatically purchased entrance into Heaven for everybody, even those who refuse to repent of their sins? He obviously doesn’t understand that we must repent and come to Jesus. Only through Him can we be saved. Since he doesn’t believe in the Trinity, he probably doesn’t know that Jesus is God.

Justin: Eve seems confused. Maybe I should go back to where we started. “We go to the temple to make covenants so that our families can be together forever. If I am true and faithful to my covenants, and endure to the end, I can, through Christ’s Atonement be resurrected with an immortal body and receive a degree of glory, hopefully the Celestial Kingdom.”

Eve: ‘Endure to the end’? Oh dear God, that’s HORRIBLE! What a bondage! Oh! I feel sick inside for Justin. He doesn’t know Jesus. And why does he keep talking about a temple? A temple is just a building. What only matters is if the Lord shows up. There’s no way Justin understands anything about the Gospel and how to be saved if all he can do is hope for some ‘Celestial Kingdom.’ Lord, help me! I’ve got to remember to stick to the Word of God; it gives life …“The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 “By grace you are saved through faith, not a result of works, lest any man should boast.” I know it’s by God’s grace that we are saved. There is nothing we can do that can earn us salvation. I’ve heard that you’re a Mormon. Do Mormons believe the Bible?

Justin: “Yes, we believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. The Book of Mormon says ‘It is by grace we are saved after all we can do.’ ” We need to show by our actions that we have truly repented of our sins. Just saying a quick prayer isn’t good enough. We also need to do good works which include; sincere prayer, coupled with repentance, humility, placing our faith in Christ, and trying to make restitution if we have sinned against others. These are necessary works to show that we are sincere in our request for forgiveness. After we have done all of these things, when we come unto Christ, and ask in humble prayer, His Atonement will cleanse us from our sins.

Eve: ‘After all we can do’? What matters is what Jesus Christ did! There is no way we can be saved without Jesus. Placing our faith in Christ is what counts. And ‘as far as it is translated correctly’? The Bible is God’s Holy Word. How could anyone who loves the Lord doubt His Word? Lord, I guess there’s no way Justin can be a Christian if he doesn’t even believe the Bible. That means Justin doesn’t understand about prayer, repentance or placing your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe I’d better find out what he does believe. Dear Father, please help me share Jesus with Justin. I want him to be able to be born again and have You in his life. From what Justin’s told me, he is so far from You. Dear God, he doesn’t even know Your Word is true. Holy Spirit, Help me! Maybe I’d better find out what he does believe. “Do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?”

Justin: I wonder why Eve looks confused? Why do I feel this tension? But this can be an awesome chance to bear testimony. I want to testify of truth. “Yes. We believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, and another Testament of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith said that a man would draw nearer to God by abiding by its principles than by any other book. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. He was the first Prophet of the Restoration. We now have living prophets and apostles on the earth in our day.”

Eve: Who’s this Joseph Smith? I’ve heard a lot of stories where Jesus has appeared to people and they get saved. I remember the cover story ‘When Muslims see Jesus’ in September 2011 Charisma magazine about thousands of Muslims converting to Christianity after encountering Jesus in dreams or visions. And Christ-centered TV is always highlighting different ministries of men and women who are modern day prophets, prophetesses and apostles; they speak to Jesus. I’m grateful for these women and men who hear from the Lord, and I’m grateful for their teachings. … In fact, I met the Holy Ghost through Benny Hinn. How sad about Benny’s wrecked marriage … His ministry blessed me so much, I’ve got to pray for him… And he was introduced to the Holy Spirit through Kathryn Kuhlman. I remember that day when the power of the Holy Spirit fell upon me, and I’ve never been the same since. Thank God we live in an age when the Lord talks to each of us personally. Thank God He gives us apostles and prophets and prophetesses and evangelists and pastors and teachers today, just like the New Testament church … But why does Justin talk about this Joseph Smith and not about what Jesus and the Holy Spirit are doing? He must not know Them at all. I guess I can’t even talk to him about the Holy Spirit, if he doesn’t even know Jesus. I do know you can tell what people worship by what they talk about. Maybe he does worship Joseph Smith. That’s SICK!! I’m starting to feel real upset here. OK, take a deep breath …Maybe we can start back at the beginning of our conversation … “You said you went to the temple over the weekend. Is that where you go and worship?” Maybe he’s more like the Jewish people who think you have to go to a certain place to worship. I wonder how you worship if you don’t know Jesus? Maybe he’s felt the Holy Spirit drawing him, as he keeps sincerely searching and trying to find God. Dear God, please help me to help Justin find Christ! I don’t want him going to hell!

Justin: Eve seems confused. Remember Gordon B. Hinckley taught about establishing common ground. She asked about worship. I can talk about worship. “Yes. We worship at the temple. We also worship in our chapels on a weekly basis. Every week, we partake of the sacrament to remember Christ’s Atonement.”

Eve: I give up. At least he thinks about Jesus once a week. That’s a start. But he hasn’t even talked about getting born again, or the power of the Holy Spirit. Justin obviously can’t know the Holy Spirit at all, if Justin keeps talking about the things that Justin is doing, and doesn’t focus on what God’s done, and is doing. Justin hasn’t yet given any glory to God! Oops, I’d better be sure that I am giving glory to the Lord! “Worship is where I really feel the Lord; His Power and His Majesty, and I know that He’s close to me and working in my life. I had a wonderful time over the weekend too. We had an incredible worship service at church. The Presence of the Lord was all over the place.” I feel this spiritual drawing to Justin even though he is so far from You, Lord. Maybe he’s ready to start being open to You in his life. Help me, Lord. “Can I ask you a question again? Where do you think you will go when you die?”

Justin: Eve seems so sincere. Why does there seem to be this brick wall between us? Lord, help me as I bear testimony. “Heaven. That’s what I’m hoping for, and also to be reunited with my family and loved ones in God’s presence.”

Eve: Hoping? He’s only hoping? Oh dear God, he has no hope …

Justin: “…I know that because of the merits of Christ, the Atonement provides so that I can be exalted and be with my family together forever in the Celestial Kingdom, if I am faithful and endure to the end.”

Eve: Exalted??!! Only Jesus is exalted!! Why would Justin want to push God the Father off the throne and rule in His place? I’m starting to feel furious here. Calm down. Love is the only way. There is no way Justin understands the magnitude of what Jesus did for us. No wonder he has to talk about enduring to the end; without Christ, he’s lost. Oh Lord, that’s horrible. He has no hope and no joy. All he has is his family to cling to, he doesn’t even know Jesus. That’s so sad.

Justin: “Oh, I guess lunch is over. I really enjoyed talking with you, Eve. I’d like to talk again sometime. And if you’re interested, I’d love to invite you over to meet with the missionaries from our church. They’d be glad to answer any questions that you might have.” Lord, I’ll fast for Eve this coming up Fast Sunday, that she can begin to understand the truths of the Restoration.

Eve: “Oh, well, thanks. I enjoyed talking with you too, Justin. See you later.” (She gets up to leave). Missionaries! How can they have missionaries? They have nothing to share but a religion of dead works and bondage, with no hope. Justin doesn’t know Jesus. He isn’t born again. He has no concept of the freedom that’s available in Christ. All he has is a nice family, but that can’t save him. … I wish I had a nice family. Mine’s a wreck. Justin must have ‘nice family’ genes. But I am so grateful, Lord, for You, that I can know You. Thank you, Lord, for saving me. Please help me reach Justin for You. Thanks, Lord. I love You. Amen.

The purpose of this book is to help overcome the language barrier that was illustrated in this Chapter.

Building Bridges Between Spirit-filled Christians and Latter-day Saints (Mormons): A Translation Guide for Born Again Spirit-filled Christians (Charismatics / Pentecostals / Renewalists and Third Wavers) and Latter-day Saints

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