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The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. Dulles. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue?

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we can orient ourselves.

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had indicated developments in that area as you became older.

I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course your brother John and yourself had attended military school.

Mr. Oswald. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.

To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 years old—when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive.

Mr. Jenner. Hunting?

Mr. Oswald. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook, and do my squirrel hunting.

I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me. I don't know that John did—because approximately this time he had reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard.

Mr. Jenner. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time.

Mr. Jenner. This was 1948–49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no firearms in the house.

He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we didn't even own a BB gun.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever had BB guns around your home?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you boys ever owned one?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By this time, I assume you had shot one.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the neighborhood?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in firearms?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That every boy has?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But not beyond that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys attended?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast Guard?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were attending—you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume.

Mr. Oswald. Junior high school.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. Dulles. What was the name of that?

Mr. Oswald. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother John attend high school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What high school did he attend?

Mr. Oswald. We went for awhile—to get this thing in sequence, before he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to Paschal High School in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Had you attended either of those high schools?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. Jenner. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the firearms.

But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19——

Mr. Jenner. '48?

Mr. Oswald. '48—we moved to the address on Ewing Street.

Mr. Jenner. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington?

Mr. Oswald. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling.

Mr. Jenner. First?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. Jenner. W. C. Stripling High School was a junior high school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; the last 3 years.

Mr. Jenner. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in——

Mr. Oswald. West Ridglea Elementary School.

Mr. Jenner. So at this point each of you was attending a different school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee was 9 years old.

You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir—W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year, the ninth grade.

If I may, sir, perhaps correct something—I don't know for sure which way it was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was completed at that time.

Mr. Jenner. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get confused.

You spent a year at W.C. Stripling High School?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So we now have—we are now into '49-'50, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And after a year at W.C. Stripling High School, you enrolled where?

Mr. Oswald. At Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. Jenner. And that would be in the fall of 1949?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long?

Mr. Oswald. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I started——

Mr. Jenner. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort Worth.

I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed out of school that next year and worked for A&P.

Mr. Jenner. Out of school 1950–51?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother remain in school—John?

Mr. Oswald. John at this time was in the Coast Guard.

Mr. Jenner. Already in the Coast Guard?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. And you worked at the A&P during this period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you recall what they were, per week?

Mr. Oswald. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week, or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week.

Mr. Jenner. What proportion of that did you contribute to the sustaining of the family?

Mr. Oswald. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for expenses, a little spending money.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of any kind to your mother or sent her any money?

Mr. Oswald. To my knowledge, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during this period?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not allow her to work.

Mr. Jenner. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn some money?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51—I assume you continued working there the summer of '51?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did you reenter school that fall?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mr. Oswald. Arlington Heights High School.

Representative Ford. May I ask a question?

During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself?

Mr. Oswald. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than she was at that time, I do not know.

Representative Ford. She was working spasmodically or regularly during this period?

Mr. Oswald. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period she was selling insurance.

Representative Ford. While she was in this occupation, who took care of Lee?

Mr. Oswald. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, until I or my mother returned home from work.

Representative Ford. He was 9 or 10?

Mr. McKenzie. Eleven years old.

Representative Ford. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. I think Representative Ford's question may have been induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. Oswald. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A little more comes to mind there.

I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth—something along that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more accurate to what I really had in mind, there.

Mr. Jenner. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage—that is, working to sustain the family?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or your mother returned to the home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who undertook to care for him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

I might say you mentioned "you boys." Of course at this time John was in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother.

Mr. Jenner. And particularly during the year you were employed at the A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What were your hours?

Mr. Oswald. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on the weekends—stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night. And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was home.

Mr. Dulles. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4 o'clock, do you know?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, that would be—he was, of course, at that time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time—we were getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40 minutes or an hour earlier.

Mr. Jenner. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school year '51-'52?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And what about the year '52-'53?

Mr. Oswald. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?

Mr. Oswald. I completed my junior year in high school.

Mr. Dulles. Did you enlist for 3 years?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time.

Mr. Jenner. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?

Mr. Oswald. Just a minute, please.

In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.

Mr. Jenner. I see. For the school year 1951–52?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. Jenner. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—junior high school.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as to your doing so, and quitting high school?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. That was of your own volition?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Not at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard?

Mr. Oswald. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously——

Mr. Jenner. This is your best recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at least he talked to Lee about it in front of me.

Mr. Jenner. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is it your recollection that you did?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that.

Mr. Jenner. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any discussion—or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event that first John and then you joined the service?

Mr. Oswald. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard, that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of her responsibility along that line—it would help her, because of the limited amount of funds that she had coming in.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your service pay to your mother?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. To your knowledge, did John?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. You were single at this time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother John was?

Mr. Oswald. 1952?

Mr. Jenner. When he entered the Coast Guard.

Mr. Oswald. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single.

Mr. Jenner. Did he marry while he was in the service?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. Jenner. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he has.

Mr. Jenner. And did he enter into military service when he left the Coast Guard?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into the U.S. Air Force.

Mr. Jenner. And when was that?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954.

Mr. Jenner. When you were in Korea, did you say?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John married? Do you recall the year?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51.

Mr. Jenner. That was during the period you were working at the A&P?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And where was he stationed at that time?

Mr. Oswald. New York City.

Mr. Jenner. Staten Island, I guess.

I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer now to return to this.

You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952.

Mr. Oswald. July 11, 1952.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us in very short compass your military career?

Mr. Oswald. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When I left Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air Wing.

I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in Marine aviation—more or less to determine your ability and what your strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the aviation division.

From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I attended metalsmith school.

From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea.

Mr. Jenner. And how long were you overseas?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 18 months, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From when to when?

Mr. Oswald. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of 1954.

Mr. Jenner. And you were discharged from the Marines——

Mr. Oswald. July of 1955.

Mr. Jenner. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can give that first, with your brother Lee—his writing you, you writing him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say—not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.

In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla., I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time.

Mr. Jenner. This was then some time in 1953, I take it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir—1952.

Mr. Jenner. 1952?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. This was——

Mr. Jenner. You mean your mother and Lee—that is the period of time they were in New York City?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct.

Mr. Jenner. Living there.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see them?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time.

Mr. Oswald. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you stay?

Mr. Oswald. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place—I do not recall the address.

Mr. Jenner. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?

Mr. Oswald. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not.

Mr. McKenzie. Can we go off the record?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. Back on the record.

Mr. Jenner. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?

Mr. Oswald. He took me around, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee?

Mr. Oswald. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life—yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions.

Mr. Oswald. I'm sorry.

Mr. Jenner. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had?

Mr. Oswald. This was my camera.

Mr. Dulles. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.

Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?

Mr. Oswald. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.

Mr. Jenner. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo—that she testified was taken at the New York Zoo.

Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother Lee, as far as you know?

Mr. Oswald. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after I had the film developed.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. Back on the record.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68-A, 68-B, and 70 of which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really consists of two separate pages—the next exhibit numbers are what?

Mr. Liebeler. 281 and 282.

Mr. Jenner. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and 282, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner—the only thing you are offering to the Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appear on those two pages and not the text.

Mr. Jenner. That's correct, sir.

Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit 282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of your brother on this 10-day leave.

Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the snapshot you took?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at the Bronx Zoo—a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken during my 10-day leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953.

Mr. Jenner. Was school in session at that time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was during the summer months.

Mr. Jenner. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to have been in school at this particular time?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize either or both of those children?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recognize him, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left—but before I proceed to that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the age of your brother at the time that picture was taken?

Mr. Oswald. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that time.

Mr. Jenner. And at this time he was residing where?

Mr. Oswald. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he would be residing in New York City.

Mr. Jenner. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that?

Mr. Oswald. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in that clothing before?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar.

Mr. Jenner. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the time this picture was taken?

Mr. Oswald. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. Jenner. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where?

Mr. Oswald. In Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And you have already given the age.

To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Who is it?

Mr. Oswald. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. At what age?

Mr. Oswald. Seven or eight years old.

Mr. Jenner. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time?

Mr. Oswald. This would be—the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or 1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. To the left of that picture is a picture of—I don't know whether that is one snapshot or two.

Mr. Oswald. It is one, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to identify all three?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please identify and give the ages?

Mr. Oswald. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10.

Mr. Jenner. With the sailor hat on?

Mr. Oswald. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify John Edward Pic at the age of 12.

Mr. Jenner. And you boys were residing where at that time?

Mr. Oswald. At Dallas, Tex., on Victor Street. That was taken right outside, at the side of the house.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was taken?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures.

Mr. Jenner. Your present recollection is who took the picture?

Mr. Oswald. My mother.

Mr. Jenner. In the background is what?

Mr. Oswald. The house that we lived in on Victor Street.

Mr. Jenner. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. What is that area?

Mr. Oswald. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that reproduction?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize?

Mr. Oswald. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this young man right here—I do not recall his name—I believe his name was Donald. He lived right around the corner from us.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you.

Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper right hand corner on Exhibit 282.

Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person to whom the arrow is pointing?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother Lee?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee or not.

Mr. Jenner. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little fuzzy.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. You just do not recognize it?

Mr. Oswald. I just do not recognize it.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283—do you recognize that photograph depicted on that page?

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for identification.)

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Who is it?

Mr. Oswald. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen the original of that reproduction?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore that same baby suit.

Mr. Jenner. That is shown in that picture?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too.

Mr. Jenner. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71 marked as 285.

(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph.

Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recognize more than one person?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. And which one do you recognize?

Mr. Oswald. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or T-shirt, with his hand on his chest?

Mr. Oswald. Yes sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify that by an arrow.

Are you able to, in looking at that—to tell at what age that was taken, and where?

Mr. Oswald. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been——

Mr. Jenner. He was in New York City, was he not?

Mr. Oswald. 1953, yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286, there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize both people?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Would you indicate the person you recognize?

Mr. Oswald. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this photograph.

Mr. Jenner. That is the man?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. At about what age?

Mr. Oswald. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the age of 17.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate——

Mr. Oswald. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. Jenner. And that was taken at the high school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And he was of what age at that time?

Mr. Oswald. 17.

Mr. Jenner. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have identified your brother—would you still, however, put a arrow pointing to your brother. Thank you.

Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize those?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And would you state what they are?

Mr. Oswald. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken when he was in the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and 289, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread picture?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do, but only one.

Mr. Jenner. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the picture.

Mr. Oswald. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of the picture, approximately in the center of the picture.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify him with this brush pencil?

Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine, there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Oswald. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before. But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to use there, and much more hair on his head—there again in relation to the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he returned from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment.

Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with—were you at the time acquainted with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of Alek James Hidell?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Jenner. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J. Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was employed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, the surname Hidell?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or any other alias?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever know him to employ an alias?

Mr. Oswald. No, I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever employed one?

Mr. Oswald. Off the record, please.

Mr. Jenner. I will withdraw that question.

Mr. Oswald. This is what it amounts to.

Mr. McKenzie. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson.

Mr. Dulles. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. Back on the record.

Mr. Jenner. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit 290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify them?

Mr. Oswald. I recognize the two people in the photograph—the woman being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen that picture before?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe I have.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I believe—I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or one very, very similar to it.

Mr. Jenner. How did you come into the possession of the photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of him and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. Do you still have those photographs in your possession?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over to Mr. Jim H. Martin.

Mr. Jenner. But they are your personal property.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. Jenner. I want to get into that period of time when you were in correspondence with your brother at a later moment.

Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a reproduction of a photograph.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify them, please?

Mr. Oswald. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And June Oswald is your brother's child?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some papers of some kind in—he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a reproduction since November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Under what circumstances?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington. Tex., approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service and Marina Oswald and myself.

Mr. Dulles. Your mother was not there then?

Mr. Oswald. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in the room when this photograph was shown.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have identified that bear those exhibit numbers.

Mr. Dulles. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text?

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292.

Mr. Dulles. They may be accepted.

(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of those pages.

Mr. Dulles. That is so noted.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind? You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up with a blind date for one night only—no, I take that back. It would be just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John and his wife.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home during this 10-day stay?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, we did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee—put it this way—did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time during their New York visit?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the home of your brother John?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to any extent—no, sir, no discussion.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had arisen while they were living with your brother John's family?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an apartment in the Bronx?

Mr. Oswald. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty.

Mr. Jenner. Please, Mr. Oswald—the subject was not discussed with you during the 10-day period you were on leave?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's progress in schooling in New York City?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the attendance was good or bad—was school discussed at all, as you recall?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and friendly?

Mr. Oswald. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.

Mr. Jenner. Did he complain to you about school?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. In general did he complain about anything—any special gripes?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your 10-day leave in New York City?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Both you and your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother Lee during the 10-day period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. That would be when—the evenings and on Sunday?

Mr. Oswald. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it.

Mr. Jenner. You and your brother Lee and your mother—did you do any visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that 10-day period?

Mr. Oswald. May I have that again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. Oswald. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting along quite well.

Mr. Jenner. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then, was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any arguments during the time you were there between them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. Jenner. Did he at any time during that period—was he discourteous to his mother?

Mr. Oswald. If I may in my own words here, sir——

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. The word "discourteous"—my mother did not wish us to go to certain places—I say certain places—I do not recall the places. She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the day. I wanted to see as much of New York as I could while I was there. And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being discourteous—that is why I qualify that.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing extraordinary.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and you eventually wound up in Korea.

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period?

While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences from school which I think took place just the months before you were there—although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53 that you visited them there, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. So that according to what I recall—and this may not be accurate—what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not recall that. That did not come up at all?

Mr. Oswald. No; it did not come up at all.

Mr. Dulles. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Representative Ford. There was no mention of the farm?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It had taken place I think in May of 1953.

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir—mother did mention that Lee had appeared before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New York about that than in Texas.

Representative Ford. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate the reaction to that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir—at that time I do not recall any reaction that she had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said about it.

Representative Ford. She did not mention a man named Carro?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's name.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your present recollection, that is about all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible truancy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is all you now can recall.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. Jenner. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955.

Mr. Oswald. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you return—well, when you were mustered out, where did you go?

Mr. Oswald. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And where were your mother and brother living at that time?

Mr. Oswald. In New Orleans, La.

Mr. Jenner. Were you still single?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather than to New Orleans?

Mr. Oswald. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth, Tex. And that is where I wanted to live.

Mr. Jenner. And you did undertake residence there?

Mr. Oswald. I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Have you continued to be a resident of Fort Worth, Tex., ever since?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you got out of the service?

Mr. Oswald. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex., until March of 1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern, Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans when you returned from the service in July of 1955?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did. I did not—yes, sir, it was in July 1955 when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New Orleans, La.

Mr. Jenner. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother and mother?

Mr. Oswald. I joined my mother and brother.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 1 week.

Mr. Jenner. And you lived with your mother and brother?

Mr. Oswald. That's correct.

Mr. Jenner. That was in July of 1955?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. Jenner. He was not in school at that time.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. Jenner. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of health and state of mind?

Mr. Oswald. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that time—no, sir—he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol. At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Had you seen your brother in the interim—that is the interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from Korea in July of 1955?

Mr. Oswald. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955 that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday afternoon. And he had his uniform on—mother, he, and I.

Mr. McKenzie. Robert, he asked you this—if between the time you went to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see your brother at any time during that period of time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in 1954—January or February—I took another 10-day leave, I believe it was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days there in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. You stayed with your mother and brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes; I did.

Mr. Dulles. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for 5 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission's convenience is my convenience.

Representative Boggs. May I ask one or two questions.

Your brother John—is he alive?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. Where is he?

Mr. Oswald. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force.

Mr. Dulles. He is a half brother.

Representative Boggs. He is your older brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. How old is he?

Mr. Oswald. He is 32 now.

Representative Boggs. You never had any problems in school or in the Marine Corps, did you—I mean serious problems?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; no serious problems.

Representative Boggs. You always had problems. But you never were in any trouble?

Mr. Oswald. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life.

Representative Boggs. Ever been arrested?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Representative Boggs. Did you consider your brother a normal human being?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Representative Boggs. In every way?

Mr. Oswald. In every way.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever give you any indications of being—did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General Walker?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one question, if I may, for the record.

Mr. Dulles. Please. Do you want this on the record or off?

Mr. McKenzie. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald came back from Russia, when was this?

Mr. Oswald. This was in June 1962.

Mr. McKenzie. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962?

Mr. Dulles. Just after he returned from Russia?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth, Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him.

Mr. McKenzie. When did he move to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Oswald. This was approximately October 1962.

Mr. McKenzie. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was—from then when was the next time you saw him?

Mr. Oswald. On November 23, 1963.

Mr. McKenzie. Where was that?

Mr. Oswald. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail.

Mr. McKenzie. It was the Dallas City Jail.

Mr. Oswald. Dallas City Jail.

Mr. McKenzie. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will?

Mr. Oswald. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass window, and he was on the locked side.

Mr. McKenzie. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. All right

Representative Boggs. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that what you said?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your home for how long a period of time?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks.

Mr. Dulles. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I think you are quite right. I have a question or two.

Representative Boggs. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes.

Mr. Dulles. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to.

Representative Boggs. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8 weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly?

Mr. Oswald. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to Russia. We were just together again.

Representative Boggs. Did you have any political discussions with him at any time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Representative Boggs. He never discussed political matters with you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement it was never brought up.

Representative Boggs. By tacit, do you mean that——

Mr. Oswald. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it.

Representative Boggs. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed politics.

Representative Boggs. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I mean——

Mr. Oswald. A little bit, sir.

Representative Boggs. I mean from a philosophical point of view?

Mr. Oswald. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I always believed in and I will always believe in it.

Representative Ford. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too?

Mr. McKenzie. No, sir; he did not say.

Mr. Oswald. Would I say that?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. I would say—I will tell you, at this present time I feel like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since November 22d.

But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the same opinion that I was.

Representative Ford. That is why you said your attitude was based on your upbringing.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was a very good school.

Representative Boggs. What military academy was that?

Mr. Oswald. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss.

Representative Ford. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia? You must have talked about it some.

Mr. Oswald. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia. I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this.

Mr. Dulles. You have those letters, I believe.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we have those letters.

Mr. McKenzie. Those letters have already been given to the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this afternoon.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever tell you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to Russia.

Representative Boggs. Did he tell you why he came back?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that he was in—the letters that I have from him while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States, which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and returned to a normal life.

Mr. Dulles. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was there a change in the man before and after?

Mr. Oswald. Physically?

Mr. Dulles. No, I mean at all—changes, outlook, attitude and general——

Mr. Oswald. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me. Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but in the line of—well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so forth.

But when he started writing again in 1961—yes, 1961, his letters certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen.

Representative Boggs. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned with him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. Was the relationship between your family and your wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier, but was it pleasant?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like Marina and to show her things that she had never seen before in her life.

Representative Boggs. In the time, of course, you had known her ever since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any feeling——

Mr. Oswald. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days later. I say during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete—and freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this time.

Representative Boggs. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy.

Representative Boggs. Would you, having reached that conclusion under the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, would you give us any reason for why he may have done this?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I could not.

Representative Boggs. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody.

Representative Boggs. Have you discussed this matter with your stepbrother since it happened?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay but we are just trying to establish——

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you want to ask him.

Representative Boggs. Thank you very much.

Mr. McKenzie. And furthermore, any information we have or any information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any other investigative agency, because——

Representative Boggs. The mandate that we are operating under is that we discover the truth.

Mr. McKenzie. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this tragic event.

Representative Boggs. I just have one or two other questions.

Mr. Oswald. I believe your last question was whether or not——

Representative Boggs. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event could have happened, did you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November 24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We had to go through the Air Force base where he was located.

Mr. Dulles. Where was he living then?

Mr. Oswald. In San Antonio with the Air Force.

I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly, perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio and the like.

Mr. Dulles. You were not in touch with him between the time of the assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, the 36 hours?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McKenzie. But you attempted to reach him?

Mr. Oswald. No.

Mr. McKenzie. You did afterwards.

Representative Boggs. Have you seen much of your mother since the assassination?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Representative Boggs. Is this because you had some emotional problems or difficulties, or what?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November, when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house, this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned.

Representative Boggs. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in touch.

Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir——

Mr. Dulles. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason for it.

Representative Boggs. I had understood him to say he had not been in contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his mother.

Mr. McKenzie. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch with you, Robert?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; we had not been in touch.

Representative Boggs. Your mother in her testimony before the Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever have any reason to think that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?" I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind.

Representative Ford. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?

Mr. Oswald. This was prior to November 22?

Representative Ford. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she did.

Representative Ford. Can you tell us when?

Mr. Oswald. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December 1963.

Mr. Jenner. By telephone or personal?

Mr. Oswald. By telephone, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to relate—for Representative Ford—who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags?

Mr. Oswald. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking to me about this.

Mr. Jenner. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say?

Mr. Oswald. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA.

Mr. Jenner. Did she identify the facts in writing?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you inquire of her on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific basis of hers on which she predicated her statement?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give it to the U.S. Secret Service.

Representative Ford. What did she say to that?

Mr. Oswald. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked off.

Mr. Dulles. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her counsel at that time, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she had not.

Mr. Dulles. She had not.

Representative Boggs. You at various times have tried to help your mother, I gather, while you were growing up.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. I gather you found it rather difficult even when you were younger to get along with your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and your brother, John?

Representative Boggs. Those were the questions I was about to ask.

Mr. Oswald. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John, and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her more than I or my older brother John could.

Representative Boggs. Your father died when you were what, about 5?

Mr. Oswald. Five years old, sir.

Representative Boggs. You were living in New Orleans when he died?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Representative Boggs. What did he do?

Mr. Oswald. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans.

Representative Ford. Were your mother and father living a happy normal life at the time of his death?

Mr. Oswald. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well normally?

Mr. Oswald. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this arguing other than it was just loud.

Mr. Jenner. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school.

Mr. Dulles. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. He has been on for 2 hours.

Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now?

Representative Boggs. No, I would just like to thank the witness for his cooperation.

Mr. Oswald. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back?

Representative Ford. I am going to stay until we get some notice from the House if we have any call or a vote.

Mr. Dulles. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be agreeable.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Dulles. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Representative Ford. It would be helpful because we are likely to get a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few questions.

Mr. Jenner. Go right ahead.

Mr. Dulles. Okay.

Representative Ford. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. Oswald. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse reaction to it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in the status of that discharge?

Representative Ford. No, I was referring to the circumstances under which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis.

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Representative Ford. Were you familiar with that?

Mr. Oswald. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was all that was said between Lee and I about it.

Representative Ford. When did you learn about the change in his discharge?

Mr. Oswald. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which.

Representative Ford. Did you take any action when you learned of these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this situation?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the board reached a final decision.

Representative Ford. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back from Washington.

Representative Ford. Did she fill you in in some detail about her return from Washington?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that.

Representative Ford. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it?

Mr. Oswald. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw numbers of people, different people.

Representative Ford. The principal information you have about Lee's return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have from Lee?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Representative Ford. Those will be submitted subsequently.

Mr. McKenzie. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did you address me?

Mr. McKenzie. The Commission has copies of the letters.

Representative Ford. The Commission has copies and they will be submitted for the record.

Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to come back?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course, thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters.

Representative Ford. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that. He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with his wife and the baby.

Representative Ford. When he did return, after having borrowed money from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and assistance in repaying the loan?

Mr. Oswald. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank, I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Representative Ford. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee, used to get to Fort Worth.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Representative Ford. Did Lee ever repay you for that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100 for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field, on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry about that, but just to take his time.

Representative Ford. How long did it take him to repay the remainder?

Mr. Oswald. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check.

Representative Ford. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it.

Representative Ford. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying Russian or had become articulate in Russian?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Representative Ford. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime, did he ever show a skill at language, for languages?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any type of foreign language.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the letter to which you now have reference.

Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our copies?

Mr. McKenzie. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the telegram is June 14, 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294.

(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness the originals?

Mr. McKenzie. I have just handed them to him.

Mr. Jenner. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please?

Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone call through your wife on June 14, 19——

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me, June 13.

Mr. Jenner. 13?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is June 14.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Oswald. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on June 13, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th, is what?

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York Welfare Center?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13, 1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and Marina might expect to be in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And was that by telegram or telephone?

Mr. Oswald. This was by telephone I first received the word.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Is that document before you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Jenner. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually received that document which is now before you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. June 14.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the document so marked and identified.

Mr. Dulles. It may be accepted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. The letter of November 8, 19—do you have a better copy, is that 1959?

Mr. Oswald. It is 1959.

Mr. Dulles. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it?

Mr. Jenner. We are employing as a substitute for the original a photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293.

Mr. Dulles. All right.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment, please?

(Short recess.)

Mr. Jenner. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by Representative Ford.

Mr. Dulles. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the original?

Mr. Oswald. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Whose handwriting is it?

Mr. Oswald. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper lefthand corner of the original.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in Russian?

Mr. Oswald. I would assume that it would be.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due course?

Mr. Oswald. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Is this the letter to which you made reference in responding to Representative Ford's questions?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. Jenner. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the bottom of the second page?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the original?

Mr. Oswald. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make out.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will, indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your attention immediately.

Mr. Dulles. What is the date of this?

Mr. McKenzie. November 8, 1959, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Proceed, if you will.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his voice a little bit?

Mr. Jenner. No.

Mr. McKenzie. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter.

"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert:

"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to comprehend my reasons.

"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance, that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I" then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to. This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet Union and I will never leave.

"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be able to pay it back."

Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room 233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which I take to be Russian, which is scratched out.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. McKenzie. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a moment here.

Mr. Jenner. I thought it was the first.

Mr. McKenzie. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. Jenner. That was earlier.

Mr. Oswald. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia.

Mr. Dulles. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. October 13.

Mr. Dulles. October 13.

Mr. Oswald. 1959.

Mr. Dulles. And this was——

Mr. Jenner. November 8.

Mr. Dulles. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks.

Mr. Oswald. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on Halloween Day 1959, October 31.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had previously sent him.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you sent him such a telegram?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event, stimulation?

Mr. Oswald. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Who notified you?

Mr. Oswald. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of information—that they could relay to us when they received anything about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them.

After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him, and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee, and he suggested a letter—pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee.

I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and one to your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these telegrams from Western Union.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from that you do not have copies?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition.

Mr. Jenner. November 1, 1959?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please state to the best of your present recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western Union?

Mr. Oswald. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means available.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir?

Mr. Oswald. I don't believe I did, sir.

And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me through any means available. I did use the word "mistake."

Mr. Jenner. Would you please give me your best recollection of the message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched?

Mr. Oswald. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia, requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313 Davenport."

Mr. Jenner. The word "mistake" was by itself?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he would know that I did send the telegram.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive a response to that telegram?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the telegrams.

Mr. Jenner. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 294?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is the first word you had from him in which he acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted?

Mr. Jenner. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified.

Mr. Dulles. Accepted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original having been produced before the Commission.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the telegram and his reaction to it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself.

Mr. Jenner. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November 8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you attempted to reach him by telephone?

Mr. Oswald. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday, November 1, 1959. I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You were unable to, you mean?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment have Lee on the telephone in Moscow.

Mr. Jenner. At that time?

Mr. Oswald. At approximately that same date.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as you know?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he.

Mr. Jenner. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you send him any money?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to come back I would gladly send it.

Mr. Jenner. Your reply—did you write him a letter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a copy of that letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to him.

Mr. Jenner. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs. Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No, he always threw them away."

Mr. Jenner. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to your brother's letter of November 8, 1959?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the letter.

Mr. Jenner. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November 8?

Mr. Oswald. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I had to say to the members of the press at that time.

Mr. Jenner. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1, 1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your brother John ever called him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1, sir, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. That is when the entry was made.

Mr. Oswald. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date—he was in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he actually went over there.

Mr. Jenner. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to reach him or she did reach him by telephone?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he hung up.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading through it—the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter.

Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it tomorrow.

Mr. Dulles. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon.

Mr. Jenner. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with you gentlemen.

The Chairman. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling.

Mr. McKenzie. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Jenner. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, and so on, if you could bring that out.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty he just left left that out.

Would you—you did give us in detail in your various stages and your specialty.

Mr. Oswald. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif., during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that—excuse me, I retained that rank until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami, Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe that I received in the Marine Corps.

I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal, and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit Citations, and such.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Thank you.

I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas.

Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who was present and what was said?

Mr. Oswald. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my home in Denton, Tex.

I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on the other end, at my mother's home.

Mr. Jenner. You recognized her voice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. It was your mother?

Mr. Oswald. It was my mother.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say on the subject?

Mr. Oswald. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be able to concretely establish that with the officials.

Mr. Jenner. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the occasion in the Six Flags Motel?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely than that it followed the other?

Mr. Oswald. I would say this was approximately during the week of December 9, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you?

Mr. Oswald. This was before her trip to Washington.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States?

Mr. Oswald. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to Washington.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During the time of your youth and your association with your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap gun other than with his right hand?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak.

Mr. Jenner. He was what?

Mr. Oswald. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns.

Mr. Jenner. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he had it in his right hand?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort Worth.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip.

Mr. Oswald. My brother-in-law.

Mr. Jenner. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?

Mr. Oswald. Three of us.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a rifle?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Those I take it were .22's.

Mr. Oswald. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you obtain them?

Mr. Oswald. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother-in-law?

Mr. Oswald. My brother-in-law.

Mr. Jenner. What is his name?

Mr. Oswald. S. R. Mercer, Jr.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how?

Mr. Oswald. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in—between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.

Mr. Dulles. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?

Mr. Oswald. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.

Mr. Dulles. And then he shipped out?

Mr. Oswald. To locate a job.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see him do so?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he place the butt of the gun?

Mr. Oswald. The right shoulder.

Mr. Jenner. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull the trigger and discharge the gun?

Mr. Oswald. The right hand, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22 caliber gun on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I would say an average amount.

Mr. Jenner. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, I mean?

Mr. Oswald. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.

Mr. McKenzie. Did all three of you claim him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?

Mr. Oswald. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them.

Mr. Jenner. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you indicate the frequency of that?

Mr. Oswald. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. During a leave that he had?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.

The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.

Mr. Jenner. What weapons did you use on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.

Mr. Jenner. Would that be true of all three occasions?

Mr. Oswald. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 rifle.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the semiautomatic?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle——

Mr. Jenner. Was that a bolt-action rifle?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at the farm.

Mr. Jenner. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you did not accompany him?

Mr. Oswald. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so.

Mr. Dulles. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation?

Mr. Oswald. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from him.

Mr. Jenner. Is that one of the letters you produced?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the letter, apart from the letter?

Mr. Oswald. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he was able to——

Mr. Jenner. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck.

Mr. Jenner. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting?

Mr. Oswald. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to have, the shotgun.

Mr. Jenner. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that would be June-July of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the extent of the conversation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is.

Mr. Jenner. As you now recall it—there have been some reports, and they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time with a guarantee from you.

What information or knowledge do you have in that connection?

Mr. Oswald. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Where in Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which was——

Mr. Jenner. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event?

Mr. Oswald. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962. And at his request——

Mr. Jenner. He came to you, excuse me.

Mr. Oswald. He called me, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He called you by telephone?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of employment in Fort Worth at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Give us the substance of what he said.

Mr. Oswald. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West 7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was charging.

Mr. Jenner. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of what—the use to which he intended to put his credit?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a baby chair and a baby bed.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever any discussion between you about his purchase or acquisition of a television set?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. Were you ever in his home or apartment?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see a television set there?

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes Street, is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not a television set that I remember.

Mr. Jenner. On any occasion that you were there?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in those premises a television set?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where was that?

Mr. Oswald. At my house and at my mother's house.

Mr. Jenner. I should have been more specific and identified a residence as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your mother.

Mr. Oswald. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his own.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussions—did any discussion ever occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a television set?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this television set matter?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had quite an ordeal for the day.

Mr. Jenner. It is acceptable.

Mr. Dulles. Is it acceptable to you?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. I have no objection to continuing.

Mr. McKenzie. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can reconvene then.

Mr. Rankin. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in the morning.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)