Читать книгу The Warren Commission Report: The Official Report on the Assassination of President Kennedy - U.S. Government - Страница 21

Table of Contents

The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The Chairman. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, so you will know just what this is about.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination.

The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for examining witnesses and receiving evidence.

That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald.

You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie.

Would you state your name for the Commission?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of that State.

The Chairman. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert Oswald?

Mr. McKenzie. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him.

The Chairman. Thank you very much.

There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing.

Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings at which you are to testify?

Mr. Oswald. I do.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he will step out and get the file.

The Chairman. You would like to wait for that?

Mr. McKenzie. If you don't mind.

The Chairman. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the Commission, will conduct the examination this morning.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission.

And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler, counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly.

The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise explain my position to some extent.

And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford.

I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information.

The Chairman. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are ready to proceed.

The Chairman. Mr. Jenner?

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the next number.

The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February 17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for identification.)

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make one other statement to the Commission.

The Chairman. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those introduced into evidence?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified and marked.

The Chairman. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through 275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Now, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKenzie. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received from—dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. Oswald—Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and understanding of your final report.

The Chairman. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, and we will not release them to the press or to any other person.

Mr. McKenzie. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that stipulation is for the record.

The Chairman. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order.

Mr. McKenzie. Absolutely.

The Chairman. And for no other purpose.

Mr. McKenzie. Absolutely.

The Chairman. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us?

Mr. McKenzie. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this morning.

The Chairman. That is all right. Either way you want to do it.

Mr. McKenzie. Whichever way the Commission would prefer.

But we have started making copies this morning.

The Chairman. That is all right, then. You may do it that way.

Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment.

The Chairman. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles—we have had a very short session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added it also covered Mr. Oswald's life.

At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full name?

Mr. Oswald. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And you reside now where?

Mr. Oswald. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. What is your present business or occupation?

Mr. Oswald. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of sales coordinator.

Mr. Jenner. What city or town?

Mr. Oswald. Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. What is the nature of your employment by that company?

Mr. Oswald. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of the invoices.

Mr. Jenner. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. Oswald. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years.

Mr. Jenner. And I think it might be helpful at this point—what is the date of your birth?

Mr. Oswald. April 7, 1934, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Can you tell me how many years old you are?

Mr. Oswald. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964.

The Chairman. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I will be back to be with you.

Mr. Dulles (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. Mr. Dulles.

Would you identify your family—Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children?

Mr. Oswald. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.

Mr. Jenner. The ages?

Mr. Oswald. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old this April.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name?

Mr. Oswald. Vada Marie Mercer.

Mr. Jenner. She is a native of your present town?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Your father's full name?

Mr. Oswald. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Edward?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And he is now deceased?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You were then about what—5 years old?

Mr. Oswald. Five years old, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her middle name?

Mr. Oswald. Claverie.

Mr. Jenner. And what was her maiden name?

Mr. Oswald. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. John Edward Pic.

Mr. Jenner. And he is a stepbrother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom?

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me. He is a half brother.

Mr. McKenzie. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am probably in error. A half brother.

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question.

Mr. Jenner. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't hesitate to do that.

Your half brother's father was whom?

Mr. Oswald. This I do not know. I don't know his full name.

Mr. Jenner. Was it John, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. I would be of the opinion it was John.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever met him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. You never had any acquaintance with him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever seen a picture identified as being John's father.

Mr. Dulles. You are speaking of the father now?

Mr. Jenner. That is correct, sir.

And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you happen to recall his age?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January 17, 1932.

Mr. Jenner. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And as boys, the family lived together?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was married a third time, was she not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. To whom?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. 1944 or early '45.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Jenner. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I certainly did.

Mr. Jenner. Would you indicate the general circumstances?

Mr. Oswald. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the address. It was Victor Street.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "we"——

Mr. Oswald. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that perhaps more numerous occasions he was there—now I can say three or four times he was around the house prior to the marriage.

Mr. Jenner. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. But she was employed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments.

Mr. Jenner. Serving as a rental agent?

Mr. Oswald. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge—she owned this house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments.

Mr. Jenner. In addition to that, was your mother separately or independently employed—that is independently from——

Mr. Oswald. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. And at that time all three of you boys were attending—would that be elementary school at that time?

Mr. Oswald. Elementary school, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. Lee was not.

Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?

Mr. Oswald. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time.

Mr. Jenner. But you and your brother John were?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as you can recall, especially of your early life—elementary school days. We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would like the background and flavor in which the family lived.

Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, elementary school.

John, of course, started——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir.

Did I ask you where you were born?

Mr. Oswald. No, you did not.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state that?

Mr. Oswald. I was born in New Orleans, La.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Excuse the interruption.

Mr. Oswald. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was a brick school building.

I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe——

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the name of the elementary school?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time—Robert, in giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to date, to names, to street addresses—just give us as complete detail as you possibly can.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and so forth, if you recall.

Mr. Oswald. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. However, approximately around this time—this would be in 1941—mother placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner?

In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there—you were living there all the time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Or were you going home?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; we were living there.

Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year.

Mr. Jenner. That would take you to 1942.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La.

We used to refer to it as the BOH.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point.

That would be 1942?

Mr. Oswald. The best I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself.

Mr. Jenner. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school—was this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Twenty-four hours a day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall the address at that particular time.

I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the house, but I cannot remember the address.

Mr. Jenner. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living with your mother.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this early age.

Mr. Jenner. So, I take it, she was employed.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were at the Catholic school?

Mr. Oswald. I am sure—I feel sure she was, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we certainly can.

Mr. Jenner. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your family?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

I interrupted you—pardon me.

You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to us the nature of that school?

Mr. Oswald. Well——

Mr. Jenner. Was it a public or private institution?

Mr. Oswald. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere generally—of course all the boys and girls were separated—I recall just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The cafeteria was located——

Mr. Dulles. Could you tell us about how many there were in this orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200?

Mr. Oswald. I would say around 75 to 100, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct?

Mr. Oswald. 1942—that would be correct, sir.

The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large dormitory.

Mr. McKenzie. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. In the city proper, rather than a suburb?

Mr. Oswald. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that particular time.

My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there—it was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian atmosphere.

Going back to the Catholic school—we had to go to church every morning and so forth like that.

But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I might add—better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question there?

Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school?

Mr. Oswald. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe it was a public—I feel it was a private school or home. But that the religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have been just a Protestant home.

Mr. Jenner. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles—the name of this school or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an orphan.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those circumstances.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.

Mr. Jenner. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. I think I have read somewhere—I would like to ask, if I may—I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I don't know where I read that, but I recollect that.

Is that the case, do you remember?

Mr. Oswald. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at night.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this school—for what period of time?

Mr. Oswald. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school?

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan Home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on Wednesdays—this perhaps might have been during the summer months only—that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact address of it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe that, please.

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall on the weekends—a weekend, I should say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week at that particular time. I do not recall—I have been thinking about this—seeing Lee too often at that time.

Mr. Jenner. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in awhile?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly.

But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind?

Mr. Oswald. I would like to back up there just a little bit.

Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last year that we were there.

Mr. Jenner. That would be, then, 1943?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Dulles. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be approximately 4—well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why?

Mr. Oswald. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say very young—say under 3 years old.

I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a half years old.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in the home?

If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New Orleans town district and visit your mother.

Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she did come to visit?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit mother, and we always took Lee with us.

Mr. Jenner. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year period, in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home?

Mr. Oswald. John and I both looked on Lee as our kid brother, and we stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to.

Mr. Jenner. How did Lee get along during those days?

Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas.

Mr. Oswald. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my mind that he did not get along with anybody.

Mr. Jenner. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular time—got into his fights to the extent everyone else did?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. You mean at the time he was 4 years old?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There may be others who would be interested in his course of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for going into that.

Mr. Oswald. Certainly.

Mr. Jenner. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct, with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his age, is what you would describe as normal?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you would like to report?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to be with mother again, all of us together.

As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided—can you recall the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house, a large two-story white—I feel sure it was a frame white house. The garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the garage.

Mr. Jenner. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of order.

Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Thank you.

Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she already arranged for employment in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas.

And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any relatives in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native of Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he was at that time—I believe that is correct, sir—at least the way I remember it—employed by the Texas Electric Co.

Mr. Jenner. At what office?

Mr. Oswald. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas Power and Light, perhaps—something like that.

Mr. Jenner. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And had you become—you boys become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time of your moving to Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you moved to Dallas.

Would you tell us about that—all three of you? You and your brother John first, because Lee was not yet of school age.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four blocks from the house.

Mr. Dulles. What was that name?

Mr. Oswald. Davy Crockett.

Mr. Jenner. Both you and your brother John were enrolled?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And there was—I believe it was a city park right across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that.

Mr. Jenner. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant one?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And except for the restrictions that you and John encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home, what is your recollection of that early period of your life—subject to those limitations—normal and pleasant?

Mr. Oswald. The only thing I can remember—I did have a little difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl.

Mr. Jenner. When you reached Texas?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in school myself, to make myself clearly understood.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask a question there?

When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the school hours?

Mr. Oswald. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live there. We lived at home.

Mr. Dulles. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it.

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my knowledge—I feel certain she was employed.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the nature of her employment there?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on weekends?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in Dallas—in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if anyone? What was done for his comfort?

Mr. Oswald. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps——

Mr. Jenner. A day nursery?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him home?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you play any part in that at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to the day nursery or bringing him back.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the Davy Crockett Elementary School, you and John?

Mr. Oswald. Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that school year.

Mr. Jenner. He could come—he did on occasion come to visit your mother's home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that—that is, he would visit the home occasionally?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he take you boys out?

Mr. Oswald. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions.

Mr. Jenner. We now have you towards the latter part of the year—you were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that?

Mr. Oswald. 1944, I would be 10 years old.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother John was 12?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother Lee was then 5?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you continue—when did you change—you said you stayed at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what school?

Mr. Oswald. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945.

Mr. Jenner. You and John?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct—after we completed the year at Davy Crockett, I believe they were married shortly after the end of the school year.

Mr. Jenner. That is in June, probably?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time.

Mr. Jenner. And that would be—June of '44?

Mr. McKenzie. June of '45.

Mr. Jenner. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl—what was his full name?

Mr. Oswald. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A."

Mr. Jenner. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in Dallas at that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?

Mr. Oswald. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the expenses at the Academy.

Mr. Jenner. She told you at this time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. This is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And that was your understanding of both you and John at that particular time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That she was financing your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife?

Mr. Oswald. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not working.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did finance your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that—I did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at that time, a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in this military school in Mississippi.

Mr. Jenner. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that your mother sold—there was a home in New Orleans which was sold?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home were still intact?

Mr. Oswald. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the home was paid for or anything.

Mr. Jenner. This is all speculation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt.

Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident that the Commission is not interested in any speculation.

Mr. Jenner. And if you do speculate, tell us so.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes—indicate that you are speculating.

Mr. Dulles. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life?

Mr. Jenner. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small.

Mr. Dulles. It is known in the record?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. May I ask a question?

Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the circumstances?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street, following the marriage.

Mr. Dulles. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that a school where you lived?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You lived there?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Day and night?

Mr. Oswald. During the period that we went to the military school, we stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year.

Mr. Jenner. What was the distance from Dallas—in general—to the military school?

Mr. McKenzie. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles.

Mr. Oswald. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss.

Mr. Jenner. Quite a distance?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. So you could not go home weekends?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; we did not go home weekends.

Mr. Jenner. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl, to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the home on Victor Street?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question?

Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military academy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You were home for 3 months, roughly?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. That would be in the summer of '45?

Mr. Oswald. The summer of '46.

Mr. Jenner. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained at the military school.

Mr. Oswald. Three school years.

Mr. Jenner. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947.

So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That would be correct.

Mr. Jenner. '48 or '47?

Mr. Oswald. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1 year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the third year.

Mr. Jenner. All right. June of '48?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school—the last year that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene.

Mr. Jenner. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in divorce, as I recall it.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall approximately when that was?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47. I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the academy.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at the moment.

Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period, plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during the period of time you were at the military school?

Mr. Oswald. I believe the first year——

Mr. Jenner. Chronologically.

Mr. Oswald. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months. I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior marriage, and they had lived together, all of them—Lee, my mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and his son—in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona.

Mr. Jenner. Living in Arizona?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Representative Ford. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Oswald. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce?

Mr. Oswald. I believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. It is—well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth, on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house—I recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the academy—the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage with it. There was a creek that was perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk was, but he found out.

Mr. McKenzie. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.

As I indicated, at that time——

Mr. Jenner. Could you fix the year?

Mr. Oswald. This would be—I feel certain that this was the first year that we were in military school, and the first Christmas.

Mr. Jenner. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945.

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier.

They were in Massachusetts at that time.

This would be the second year.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr. Ekdahl's son by a former marriage.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the termination of the stay in Boston?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel that distance in that length of time—that John went with some friends of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home—I don't recall where.

I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during Christmas.

Mr. Jenner. These were friends of yours in the academy?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that—because they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them.

Mr. Jenner. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee.

Mr. Oswald. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home—I believe that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home?

Mr. Oswald. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the academy. We did come to Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please?

Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall?

Mr. Oswald. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to Boston, Mass.

Mr. McKenzie. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates.

Mr. McKenzie. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKenzie. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the press until such time as the Commission makes its final report—if at that time.

Representative Ford. I think that is most important, that we don't indicate that they will never be given to the press.

Mr. Dulles. No. That was made clear before you came in—that this would be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the Commission saw fit.

Mr. Jenner. Is it all right to proceed, sir?

Mr. Dulles. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. Jenner. The second residence, then, was—I mean the second one during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook, Tex.

How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a half at that particular house.

Mr. Jenner. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another home in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. This was—on our return from military school, the last year we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth.

Mr. Dulles. This was after the divorce?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce.

Representative Ford. She owned the original house in Benbrook?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had rented that house, or leased it.

Representative Ford. Then she purchased this second house?

Mr. Oswald. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this smaller home.

Mr. Jenner. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was not employed? She was home?

Mr. Oswald. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl—she was not employed at any time I am aware of.

Mr. Jenner. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of a mother to her son, Lee?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe personally on this subject, did you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for Lee during that period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did she have any assistance?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. No household help?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover that. I would like to ask as to—was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view?

He was 7 or 8 years old now.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. He was 8 years old—he was 6 years old when they moved to—the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee, was 6 years old?

Mr. Oswald. Six years old.

Mr. Jenner. And that is about the time when you enter elementary school, is it not?

Mr. Oswald. That I entered elementary school?

Mr. Jenner. No—children generally.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to elementary school.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that connection, to the best of your recollection, and now.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee travel with them?

Mr. Oswald. I believe that he did during that time.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. You are trying not to speculate.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record.

Mr. McKenzie. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school age—commencement age was 7 years old.

Mr. Dulles. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee doing—was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten?

Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military academy—where was Lee?

Representative Ford. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean the mandatory attendance age?

Mr. Jaworski. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, that is what I have reference to.

Mr. Jaworski. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were normally sent to kindergarten in those days.

Mr. Jenner. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this period, let's call it the military school period because we have identified the time question—at the commencement Lee was then 6 years old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period.

He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion—he was not.

Mr. Jenner. And that was your information at the time that you and John were attending military school?

Mr. Oswald. That would be correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him during that period—if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Oswald. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these travels. I don't recall—other than this one photograph—at one time they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, John and I, usually just one letter to both of us—any other names or areas that they had traveled during this period.

Mr. Jenner. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. Oswald. Benbrook; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was Benbrook School.

Mr. Jenner. It was an elementary school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything. I believe it is closed down now.

Mr. Jenner. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from letters from your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—perhaps both—one way or the other during that period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this point what were the relationships between yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother relationships?

Mr. Oswald. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine.

Mr. Jenner. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself on the one hand, and Lee on the other—let us take the 6- to 7- to 8-year-old period.

Mr. Oswald. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him. We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life—a spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. That is quite a gap.

A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old—that would be you—and a brother 13 years old, that would be John—at that age, that is quite a gap.

Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home during the summer vacations?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of time—both John and I—with Lee.

I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most of the time.

I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times.

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships between you and John—between you boys and your mother? Was that a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall? Personality-wise, for example.

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook—my mother was a little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that—this was, I am sure, the second Christmas we were there from military school.

Mr. Jenner. That would be 1947?

Mr. Oswald. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side.

Mr. Jenner. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no difficulties with her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; pleasant memories to me.

Mr. Jenner. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have when they are naughty?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or did that only come later?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me.

Mr. Dulles. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we attended there—this would be the summer of 1947.

Mr. Dulles. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a minute. It is now 11 o'clock.

Representative Ford. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the record.

Mr. Dulles. Yes. I think that should be in the record.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Dulles. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr. Jenner, with your questions.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits.

Mr. Dulles. Certainly.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the witness?

Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, I am.

Mr. Jenner. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the persons who purported to have signed?

Mr. Oswald. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me.

Mr. Jenner. Did they affix those signatures in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. And they are persons known to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify them for the record?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law firm, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm.

And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr. McKenzie's office.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, to my partner, Henry Baer.

Mr. Jenner. Is Miss Connelly your secretary?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and give me the exhibit number—turn to the exhibit page and identify the situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether it was signed in your presence and where.

Mr. Oswald. Commission Exhibit No. 273—I was not present when this letter was signed.

Mr. Jenner. Does the letter bear your signature?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it does not.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported to have signed it?

Mr. Oswald. I am not familiar with the signature—I am familiar with the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford.

I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's secretary.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are?

Mr. Oswald. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the following day.

Mr. Jenner. What were the circumstances under which you became acquainted with Mrs. Ford?

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me just a minute.

I would like to correct that.

It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became acquainted with Mrs. Ford.

At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And where did this take place?

Mr. Oswald. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr. Thorne, and Mrs. Ford?

Mr. Oswald. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present.

Mr. Jenner. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the following day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Where did that take place, and in whose presence?

Mr. Oswald. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford.

Mr. Jenner. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks ago today?

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me just a minute.

Mr. McKenzie. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday.

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of this.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here.

Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago.

Mr. Jenner. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us the date so we will have it in the record now?

Mr. Oswald. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs. Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my home in Denton, Tex.

On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my residence at Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The others you were unable to identify?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number?

Mr. Oswald. Commission Exhibit No. 274.

Mr. Jenner. Is it signed on its face?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of the exhibit, does it bear a signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Whose signature is it?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. William A. McKenzie.

Mr. Jenner. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with those signatures?

Mr. Oswald. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am familiar with—Mrs. Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a series?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next signature purports to be that of whom?

Mr. Oswald. Mrs. Katherine Ford.

Mr. Jenner. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You are not familiar with her signature?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And the next signature, please?

Mr. Oswald. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. The next signature?

Mr. Oswald. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second page.

Mr. Jenner. Would you proceed to the next exhibit?

Mr. Oswald. 275.

Mr. Jenner. That consists of how many pages?

Mr. Oswald. Two pages.

Mr. Jenner. Does it bear a signature on the first page?

Mr. Oswald. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is Mr. William A. McKenzie.

Mr. Jenner. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The same gentleman we have identified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of that exhibit?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and in order as they appear——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them?

Mr. Oswald. I am familiar with one of them.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what?

Mr. Oswald. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. You are familiar with her signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Is that her signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature.

Mr. Jenner. And the second name appears to be that of whom?

Mr. Oswald. Mrs. Katherine Ford.

Mr. Jenner. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar as your familiarity with her signature is concerned?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, sir.

Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. That is all right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to identify. They have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of which I have just finished having identified.

Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler?

Mr. Dulles. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits?

Mr. Jenner. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits and indicate their content first.

I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and 279.

If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages.

Mr. Dulles. I wish that admitted at this time with that description.

Mr. Jenner. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. Oswald. There are three signatures.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with all of them?

Mr. Oswald. May I ask my attorney something here?

Mr. Jenner. Surely.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for doing so—on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps he should start at that page.

Mr. Jenner. That is a fine suggestion.

Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Whose signature is it?

Mr. Oswald. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. There are three.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with any of them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose signature it is.

Mr. Oswald. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. The next under that?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. James H. Martin.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is his signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Who is Mr. James H. Martin?

Mr. Oswald. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed, appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. He has been identified in previous sessions before the Commission.

And there is a third signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. Jenner. And are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Whose is it, please?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney.

Mr. Jenner. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few moments ago?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a fourth signature?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there is not.

Mr. Jenner. Were those signatures affixed in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are they not, that are being identified?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jenner, state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. Where is the original of that?

Mr. McKenzie. Marina N. Oswald has the original.

Mr. Dulles. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me.

I retract that statement.

Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a signed copy, and it was an original copy.

Mr. Jenner. A duplicate original?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original, since it is addressed to him.

Mr. Dulles. And both the original and this duplicate bear these signatures, do they?

Mr. McKenzie. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the duplicate copies.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the original?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. May I ask—did you get a copy of the original at the time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Jenner. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was signed, and was signed in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And the document which we are now discussing is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Executed contemporaneously with the original?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you have any further questions?

Mr. Dulles. No, I have no further questions.

Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have gone through them all, and then admit them all?

Mr. Jenner. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because they are of a series, if I have your permission.

Mr. Dulles. Certainly.

Mr. McKenzie. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9, 1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald, John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and consisting of two pages.

Mr. Jenner. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir—I notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day of December A.D., 1963," and what purports to be your signature.

Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on that date?

Mr. Oswald. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of December was a Monday, it was signed on that date.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar.

Mr. Dulles. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here.

Mr. Jenner. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday.

Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date?

Mr. McKenzie. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. Jenner. December 6, then, was a Saturday.

Mr. McKenzie. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth.

Mr. Jenner. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed on December 6th?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. On what date was it executed?

Mr. Oswald. It was executed on Monday, December 9th.

Mr. Jenner. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first whether those signatures were affixed in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a Xerox copy—was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time as the copy which you have produced for us executed?

Mr. Oswald. May I have that again, please, sir?

Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon copies, signed, at one and the same time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And all of them were signed in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state your familiarity with those signatures and identify them?

Mr. Oswald. All right.

Left to right, as the signatures appear—my signature, Robert L. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And to the right of that?

Mr. Oswald. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, which I am familiar with.

The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar with his signature.

And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H. Martin. I am also familiar with his signature.

Mr. Jenner. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore identified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed to it?

Mr. Oswald. May I have a moment, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276?

Would you take a look at it, please?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about this—on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper right-hand part of this page there was—on this copy, there is a dark mark, following the word "royalties."

Representative Ford. What page is that?

Mr. Oswald. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or out of the contract was the word "gifts."

Mr. Jenner. And was that done in the course of the discussion and preceding the execution of the document?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. So the document is in the same condition it was when executed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKenzie. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent.

The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original.

I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the signatures.

I have seen those.

Mr. Jenner. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures?

Mr. McKenzie. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the signatures.

Mr. Dulles. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't pick them up?

Mr. McKenzie. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not reproduce the signatures.

Mr. Jenner. You actually saw the signatures?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKenzie. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements?

Mr. McKenzie. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, attached to this exhibit, of $25,000.

Mr. Jenner. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the bank, or else he would not have executed it.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know?

Mr. McKenzie. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie.

Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. That is the extent of your personal knowledge?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of the funds?

Mr. Oswald. I would say this was monies received through the mails, and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's welfare.

Mr. Jenner. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations?

Mr. Oswald. Conversations, and also being——

Mr. Jenner. With whom, sir?

Mr. Oswald. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. She related this to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had conversations with them as to the source of these funds?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too.

Mr. Jenner. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a conversation on the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. With whom?

Mr. Oswald. With Mr. Jim Martin.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did this take place?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit slip or some other validation of the actual amount.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. We don't have the full information.

Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie—you have been quite helpful. You might be further helpful to us—you might have the deposit—evidence of the deposit.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those gentlemen.

Mr. Jenner. Is there another exhibit?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December 5, 1963, in which it has three—I presume these are omissions from the exhibit—commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an omission.

Mr. Dulles. What is the nature of the omissions?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the word "gift" was omitted, or struck out.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about that.

Mr. McKenzie. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne.

I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's signature or Mr. Thorne's signature.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are you familiar with any of the signatures it bears?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with which you are familiar?

Mr. Oswald. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature.

The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his signature.

Mr. Jenner. It is his signature?

Mr. Oswald. I would say yes, it is.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Dulles. Is that under "Accepted"—is that first word there "John"?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit 279 is the signature of John M. Thorne.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed? It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Pardon me—the 5th day of December is the date purported—that this document was executed at. I am not familiar that it was executed on that date.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document until Thursday, February 13th.

Mr. Jenner. 19——

Mr. Oswald. 1964.

Mr. Jenner. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy?

Mr. McKenzie. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an original copy.

Mr. Jenner. A duplicate executed copy?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That was furnished to you by whom?

Mr. McKenzie. By Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an original, carbon copy or otherwise?

Mr. McKenzie. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy.

Mr. Jenner. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this is a photo?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it?

Mr. McKenzie. Exactly.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of the original?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas, Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow, hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of Dallas County, Texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A, Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might add, in my opinion, Mr. Jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution of the trust funds.

In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its uncontrolled discretion deem advisable."

Mr. Dulles. Who is the beneficiary of this trust?

Mr. McKenzie. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John Thorne and James Martin.

Representative Ford. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a previous exhibit?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on my part. I do not know.

I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission, that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time have these, up until February 14—have these——

Mr. Jenner. 1964?

Mr. McKenzie. 1964—have these exhibits, numbered consecutively from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the contents—what the contents were, except as explained to her in English.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines.

Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document?

Mr. McKenzie. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy.

Mr. Jenner. An executed copy?

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And from what source did you obtain or was the document exhibited to you?

Mr. McKenzie. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And you observed that it was executed?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit 280?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose.

Mr. Dulles. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve judgment on these.

Mr. McKenzie. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that fact. I felt that that would be true.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct?

Mr. McKenzie. I would not be offended in any way.

Mr. Dulles. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McKenzie. I do, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified.

Mr. Dulles. They may be accepted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276 through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Dulles. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these documents.

Mr. Jenner. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with—excuse me.

We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the summer of 1948, I believe.

Am I correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948.

We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe, following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a small home.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And refresh my recollection, please—was that in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. That was in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had entered elementary school?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. Jenner. And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And would you please relate what elementary school you and your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school?

Mr. Oswald. Prior to the school year of 1948–49, we moved to Ewing Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex., sold?

Mr. Oswald. I would say yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best information?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on 7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did sell the house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went out there. I feel sure she did sell it.

Mr. Jenner. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a home at 7408 Ewing?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical characteristics of that home?

Mr. Oswald. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot.

Mr. Jenner. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall it—have either attached garage or separate garages.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—with the exception of the home there in Benbrook that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl—it did not have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house in Benbrook.

Mr. Jenner. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an automobile?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana?

Mr. Oswald. To my best recollection on that—my father did have, at the time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home.

Mr. Jenner. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young teenagers are?

Mr. Oswald. I think so, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tinker around with them, drive them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Both you and your brother John?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee—was he likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the automobile at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver?

Mr. Oswald. To my knowledge, he did not drive.

Mr. Jenner. He did not drive at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see him drive an automobile?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later years, I offered to teach him to drive.

Mr. Jenner. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate to the Commission this course of events in his life—a young man who never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how to drive—at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had purchased. And Lee was home on leave.

Mr. Jenner. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can.

Mr. Oswald. This would be some time in 1958.

Mr. Jenner. He was then in the Marine Corps?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And he was home on leave?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. State the circumstances, will you please?

Mr. Oswald. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. How did that come about?

Mr. Oswald. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our house. We were going to the grocery store or something—Lee and I. As I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he brought it up, or something—about wanting to learn how to drive.

And I said, "Well, we can start right now."

It was an automatic transmission.

"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry about. And I would be right here with you."

Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel.

Mr. Jenner. He did not?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it.

Mr. Jenner. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see him, whether you were in the vehicle—whether or not you were in the vehicle—behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an automobile?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile, to drive it.

Mr. Jenner. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile.

Mr. Jenner. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. Are you left handed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.

Mr. Jenner. And you are right handed otherwise?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Throwing a baseball?

Mr. Oswald. Throwing a baseball.

At one time I could handle it with both hands—especially a football better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?

Mr. Oswald. This I do not know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother?

Mr. Oswald. My mother is left handed.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother Lee?

Mr. Oswald. He was right handed.

Representative Ford. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything—throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed.

Mr. Jenner. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand?

Mr. Oswald. Right handed.

Mr. Jenner. Right handed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. Jenner. During your youth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever—was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.

Mr. Jenner. You really covered my next question, but I would like to ask it anyhow.

There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.

Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.

Mr. Jenner. From your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Representative Ford. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification—I might be repeating myself here—at no time did I ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do anything left handed.

Mr. Jenner. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person?

Mr. Oswald. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.

Mr. Jenner. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you observe him on many occasions?

Mr. Oswald. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand—instinctively went to his right hand.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? Some are not coordinated athletically.

Mr. Oswald. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.

Mr. Jenner. He was dextrous?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And well coordinated?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage in athletics, did you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles, pistols, cap guns, firearms generally?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this includes all three of you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I understand that.

Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did the same thing.

However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms.

Mr. Dulles. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)