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The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. The Commission will convene.

Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation.

Mrs. Oswald. The translation is correct.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter, and the English translation.

The Chairman. The documents are admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you have just examined in Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. Is that No. 12?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it is.

Mr. Rankin. And is it in your handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you find any date on the letter? I didn't.

Mrs. Oswald. I probably didn't date it. No. I wrote this from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell the Commission the approximate date you wrote it?

Mrs. Oswald. What was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11—Exhibit No. 11?

Mr. Rankin. June 4, 1963.

Mrs. Oswald. This was probably in July, but I don't know the date.

Mr. Rankin. Do you notice there was a "P.S." on Exhibit 12?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Referring to an application by your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And was an application for your husband for a visa included or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know whether it was there or not.

Mr. Rankin. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a letter that you had written?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether his application was included because he handled the mailing of it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 13 and ask you if you recall that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my presence. But it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she will know the contents.

Mrs. Oswald. Why "separately"—the word "separately" here is underlined.

Mr. Rankin. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it before, I guess you cannot help us.

Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his visa be handled separately from yours?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I didn't know this. Because I hadn't seen this letter.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 13.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that you are referring to—that is the word that you asked about?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Was that underlined by Lee?

Mr. Rankin. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining it.

Mrs. Oswald. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do consider it separately.

Mr. Rankin. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit 14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you please compare the translation in English?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, the translation is all right.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and the English translation.

The Chairman. It may be admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange for you and your daughter to go back?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps. Because he planned to go to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that in time he would have wanted to come and see me.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember having seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that exhibit?

Mrs. Oswald. The signature is his, yes. I would like to have it translated.

Mr. Rankin. Would you translate it for her, please, Mr. Krimer?

Mrs. Oswald. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he did want to go to the Soviet Union—but now I am lost, I don't know. Because—perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business, perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is not too polite, in my opinion.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 15.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a little clearer what it is all about—if you could have a moment or two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the examination.

Mrs. Oswald. This was typed on the typewriter belonging to Ruth.

Mr. Rankin. You can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I don't know what he was typing.

Mr. Rankin. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring to, when you say Ruth?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that?

Mrs. Oswald. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on the envelope—whether it is November 2 or November 12?

Mrs. Oswald. November 12.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 16.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Then this must be 12.

Mr. Rankin. That is the only way you can determine it, is it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this letter, Exhibit 15?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Where were you when he told you about it?

Mrs. Oswald. In the home of Mrs. Paine, in my room.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband present when he told you about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just what he said about the trip at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I don't remember any more about it.

Mr. Rankin. At that time——

Mrs. Oswald. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that I did not want to, and he said, "Okay."

Mr. Rankin. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you about the trip to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to make secrets of things.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this letter of November 8, Exhibit 15?

Mrs. Oswald. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he got that name from.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about the trip?

Mrs. Oswald. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, welcomed him there.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless he used a real name, so he returned to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't tell me about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about going to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. He never told you anything of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas, and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his apartment—Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And then when he moved, he left me another phone number.

And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned him and asked for him by name—rather, Ruth telephoned him and it turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was unknown at that number.

Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book, but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?"

He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel. I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to me why he was so secretive all the time.

Mr. Rankin. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an assumed name at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been in Russia and that he had been questioned.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing. And also he did not want the FBI to know where he lived.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he did not want the FBI to know where he lived?

Mrs. Oswald. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his employment.

Mr. Rankin. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know, that is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that this would help.

Mr. Rankin. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't understand the question.

Mr. Rankin. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not?

Mrs. Oswald. Why hadn't he planned that?

Mr. Rankin. That is what I am trying to find out from you.

Did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the Soviet Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. This is not the truth. He did want to contact the embassy.

Mr. Rankin. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to visit the Soviet Embassy, did he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia and live and sometimes not. He did not know, himself. He was very changeable.

Mr. Rankin. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned, and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete our business."

Now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby would be able to get to Cuba.

Is this understandable? Does this clarify the matter or not?

Mr. Rankin. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all.

Mrs. Oswald. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba—that the only legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba.

I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is clear to you or not.

Mr. Rankin. I appreciate, Mrs. Oswald, your interpretation of it.

I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee wanted to get to Cuba by any means.

Mr. Rankin. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that, I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and, therefore, was unprepared.

Now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving?

It is not that I am asking. It seems to me that this is not a normal thing.

Mr. Rankin. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he got back?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the Embassy in Washington.

Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved thoughts of Lee.

I think that he was confused himself, and I certainly am.

Mr. Rankin. Is that all that you can recall that was said about that matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for that purpose.

Mr. Rankin. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know what he meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. What regulations—what are the regulations?

Mr. Rankin. I am trying to find out from you.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about that. I don't know what happened.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, or that the Cuban Embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned from his trip and told you about what happened there?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has since been replaced."

Do you know whom he was referring to?

Mrs. Oswald. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't understand anything, either.

Mr. Rankin. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal Bureau of Investigation is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside in that state."

Do you know why he would say anything like that to the Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. Because he was crazy.

He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary of any—he was not a secretary of any organization.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is telling about here?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"—do you know whether there was such a visit by that man?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And was he referring to the man that you know as James P. Hosty?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone number, but it seems to me that his name was different.

Mr. Rankin. After you received the telephone number, what did you do with it?

Mrs. Oswald. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn, passed it on to Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything with it?

Mrs. Oswald. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he did with it.

Mr. Rankin. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.

Mr. Rankin. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it down?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty "warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me."

Do you remember anything about anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this is another agent, not the one who visited us.

But I don't know whether Lee had talked to him or not.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't know that.

Mr. Rankin. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also 'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United States under FBI protection."

Did you ever hear of anything like that before?

Mrs. Oswald. I had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time.

The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under their protection.

Mr. Rankin. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like that to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one said anything like that.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an agent for that government, or any of its agencies?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI."

Do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a protest. This was simply a request.

Mr. Rankin. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one asked you that, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No one ever asked me.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that you have not already told us?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this letter I have told you.

The Chairman. I think we will take a short recess now, about 10 minutes.

Mrs. Oswald. I would like to help you, but I simply don't know, I cannot.

(Brief recess)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course my husband.

Mr. Rankin. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to return to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I felt very lonely—since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this would be the best way.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the Spanish language?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps five words.

Mr. Rankin. Have you given it any study?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never did.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever study Spanish that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would sit down with the textbook and look at it.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. May I take it out?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. June seems to have played with it. This was Lee's study of Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words.

Mr. Rankin. Does that Exhibit 17 have any of your husband's handwriting on it?

Mrs. Oswald. Some of it is my handwriting and some of it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. About when did he start?

Mrs. Oswald. In August, in New Orleans, 1963.

Mr. Rankin. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at that time or thereafter?

Mrs. Oswald. No, this was in September.

Mr. Rankin. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or after that date?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Do you want to know whether this was earlier than August or later?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. No, not earlier. This was in September, not in August.

Mr. Rankin. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit 17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 17.

The Chairman. It may be marked with the next number and received in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material evidence—the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it.

Mr. Rankin. Returning to the time that your husband came back from Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought back with him?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag with a zipper, blue in color.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he brought back with him from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you at the Paines?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not the whole weekend. When he returned he stayed overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or Friday evening. And he remained until Monday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more because he had run into, as he himself said—into bureaucracy and red tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us how he treated you better?

Mrs. Oswald. He helped me more—although he always did help. But he was more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and he was in somewhat an elated mood.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Was it a small or a large amount or do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large amount for you.

Mr. Rankin. Well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had?

Mrs. Oswald. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring.

Mr. Rankin. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't know the address. I didn't ask, because I didn't need it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. In what sense do you mean "lived with"?

Mr. Rankin. I mean roomed in her home.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. That was a place on Marsallis Street?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about it.

Mr. Rankin. How did he return from Irving to Dallas at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him home. By bus.

Mr. Rankin. You said before that you learned about the depository job at some neighbor's home, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. In whose home was that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. Perhaps later I will.

Mr. Rankin. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that was a guest there?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps you know the name.

Mr. Rankin. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a number of names, but not by the location.

Mrs. Oswald. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there.

Mr. Rankin. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Was that Mrs. Randle?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention it.

Mr. Rankin. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know such people.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I don't think he was 18 yet.

Mr. Rankin. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the neighbor's house?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring Lee and take him back with him to Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he take him, ordinarily?

Mrs. Oswald. 8 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Rankin. And did he take him on Monday morning?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Usually each week he would take him on Monday morning?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee came for a weekend, yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then when did he bring him back from Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. At 5:30 on Friday.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever come in the middle of the week?

Mrs. Oswald. No, only during the last week when all of this happened with reference to the assassination of the President—he came on a Thursday.

Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband getting this job at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor and mentioned that Lee was out of work.

Mr. Rankin. Was it Mrs. Paine that found out about the job, then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that Lee come there on the following day.

Mr. Rankin. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the following day?

Mrs. Oswald. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them, and he telephoned that he had already received the job.

Mr. Rankin. Did he telephone to you or to Mrs. Paine about getting the job?

Mrs. Oswald. He telephoned me. But, of course, he thanked Ruth.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three days before he got the job and started, or more than that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he started on the day following being accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th of October.

Mr. Rankin. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he call you and give you the number there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious name?

Mrs. Oswald. What do you mean where he was? From where he telephoned?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, or the number that he gave you—that is the rooming house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us you called there.

Mrs. Oswald. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned him.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second place, when you did call him?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you?

Mrs. Oswald. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say that. I read that in the paper.

Mr. Rankin. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave you when you called and he answered the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one told me anything. I didn't know under what name he lived there.

Mr. Rankin. But you found out that he was not living under his own name, is that what you meant before?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. After he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. Oswald. It was on Friday, October 18. It was his birthday.

He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed overnight from Monday until Tuesday.

Mr. Rankin. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine the rifle in the garage at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket?

Mrs. Oswald. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.

Mr. Rankin. When was that?

Mrs. Oswald. About a week after I came from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.

Mr. Rankin. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he come home Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. Oswald. On a Friday.

Mr. Rankin. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October, did he tell you he was going to change his room?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember what your husband's pay was at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that it was also $1.25.

Mr. Rankin. About how much a month did it run?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me it was $210 to $230.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the hours that he worked?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems that—it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Mr. Rankin. And did he work the weekend or any overtime?

Mrs. Oswald. No. It does happen in that depository that they work overtime. But he did not have to work any.

Mr. Rankin. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at Irving, did he call you from time to time?

Mrs. Oswald. Daily, twice.

Mr. Rankin. Did he leave his telephone number in Dallas with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

I don't have it, it was in Paine's notebook.

Mr. Rankin. Did he speak to you in Russian when he called you on the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke Russian—then he would try to speak in English.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you from Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a special celebration for your husband's birthday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When was that?

Mrs. Oswald. On October 18th.

Mr. Rankin. Who was there?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth and her children, I, Lee, and Paine's husband, Michael.

Mr. Rankin. Did Wesley Frazier bring your husband home at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I now remember.

Mr. Rankin. Did he bring him home that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember.

It seems to me, yes. It is hard to remember now which weekend was which.

Mr. Rankin. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been going to the garage and practicing with his rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever she was not at home, he tried to spend as much time as he could with me—he would watch television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our things that were there.

Mr. Rankin. And you don't know when he went there what he might have done with the rifle? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. Oswald. At least I didn't notice anything.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you have described your husband's——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the garage.

Mr. Rankin. You have described your husband's practicing on the back porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.

Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back—during those times?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.

But I did hear the noise from it from time to time—not often.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for your baby?

Mrs. Oswald. Very well.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband go with you at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. He wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way.

Mr. Rankin. After the baby was born, did he come and see you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything to you about the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. Every father talks a lot.

Mr. Rankin. Did he talk about the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. About me and the child—he was very happy. He even had tears in his eyes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he call you from Irving when you were in the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was doing.

Mr. Rankin. And those conversations would be reported to you by the nurse, then?

Mrs. Oswald. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband had called.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your husband return to Irving that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come.

This was one occasion.

The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel—that incident with the fictitious name.

No, I am confused.

It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere.

Mr. Rankin. You are asking me the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter?

Mrs. Oswald. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each time when he did come and when did not.

Mr. Rankin. Now, if it was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the birthday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not come home that weekend.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy Roberts?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with Michael Paine in October of 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

It seems to me—I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It seems to me that this was the birthday—it was after dinner. They talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got together and went to some kind of a meeting.

Mr. Rankin. Was that a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit.

Mr. Rankin. Was that in the weekend of October 25th?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the week after that, the following Friday.

Mr. Rankin. Now, on October 26th, Saturday, was your husband with you all day?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. All day. Whenever he came, he never went anywhere else.

Mr. Rankin. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you if there was any time that he could have left to have that done.

Mrs. Oswald. How is it about the telescope? He always had the telescope. Were there two?

Mr. Rankin. We are trying to find out.

Someone says that they mounted a sight.

Mrs. Oswald. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we want to check with you.

When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems—it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no—no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.

Mr. Rankin. But he did not go in by bus that day?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day.

Mr. Rankin. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October, that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine in your presence or with you.

Do you recall one on October 29th?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted—she talked to them.

Mr. Rankin. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And would she at the same time answer things in English, too, herself?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. So, in effect, the FBI was——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me—she loves to talk.

Mr. Rankin. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to some extent, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. They asked her about Lee, as far as I know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs. Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at that time, other than just a greeting.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs. Paine about you or your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to understand. But she told me that in general terms.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the November 1 interview when that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify that for us, and tell us what it is.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's notebook.

Mr. Rankin. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18?

Mrs. Oswald. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address in this notebook.

This is mine.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us—is it a long notation by you?

Mrs. Oswald. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in Minsk while I went on vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. The majority, mostly.

Mr. Rankin. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is noted down by others.

Mr. Rankin. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of notes?

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Russia.

Mr. Rankin. He started it in Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And there are a number of notations that were made after you returned to this country, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18.

The Chairman. It may be admitted with that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up in the dictionary himself and translated it.

Mr. Rankin. I would like to hand this back to you and call your attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is.

I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to Agent Hosty.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number.

Mr. Rankin. And the telephone number?

The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your husband's——

Mrs. Oswald. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, license number, and probably the address.

Mr. Rankin. Are all in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook, Exhibit 18?

Mrs. Oswald. After the first visit.

Mr. Rankin. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, November 1, with the FBI agent?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend, I told him about it.

By the way, on that day he was due to arrive.

Mr. Rankin. That is on November 1?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30—comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait.

Mr. Rankin. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of the other man beside Agent Hosty?

Mrs. Oswald. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name and the date.

Mr. Rankin. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the FBI agent and the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that they had come, that they were interested in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset.

He said that he would telephone them—I don't know whether he called or not—or that he would visit them.

Mr. Rankin. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember anything else that happened in the interview that you could tell the Commission at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was disturbing to us.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything else?

Mrs. Oswald. There was more, but I don't remember now.

Mr. Rankin. Now, during this period of time——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked whether Lee was doing that here.

Mr. Rankin. Did you answer that question?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews or conversations with the FBI during this period?

Mrs. Oswald. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas after he got his job?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what he was doing?

Mrs. Oswald. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk in the park.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say in answer to that?

Mrs. Oswald. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my requests.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week?

Mrs. Oswald. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said that that was because he wanted to visit another place—supposedly there was another job open, more interesting work.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was more interesting?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a newspaper, and that it was connected—that it was related to photography. And he went there in the morning and then—on a Saturday—and then came to us, still during the morning.

Mr. Rankin. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of that day?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, before noon.

It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the 8th—elections—were there elections on that day?

Mr. Rankin. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day?

Mrs. Oswald. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that Saturday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place?

Mrs. Oswald. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and buy a few things.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr. Hutchison?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever shop there with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. We never went just Lee and I.

Mr. Rankin. Did the three of you—Mrs. Paine and you and your husband go together to shop?

Mrs. Oswald. And her children.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market?

Mrs. Oswald. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he received unemployment compensation.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this market?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't have such a check.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that size at this market?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33.

Mr. Rankin. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a check?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving?

Mr. Rankin. It is in Irving.

Mrs. Oswald. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have been with him.

The Chairman. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)