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The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4, 1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that.

Mrs. Oswald. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with congratulations on the October Revolution—on the date of the October Revolution.

Mr. Rankin. And you think that that came in that Exhibit 19, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any other letters.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 19.

The Chairman. It may be in the record and given the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and that she might have—did have information in that regard.

Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time that I hear anything about this.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know——

Mrs. Oswald. That is all untrue, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the Cuban government at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any agency of the United States Government?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any government?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your husband to kill the President?

Mrs. Oswald. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way, whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, that he would be known in history.

Mr. Rankin. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the President, for this purpose?

Mrs. Oswald. That is my opinion. I don't know how true that is.

Mr. Rankin. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think he had the same motive or purpose in doing that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that, yes.

Mr. Rankin. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d, following his arrest?

Mrs. Oswald. On the 22d I did not see him.

On the 23d I met with him.

Mr. Rankin. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your request or his?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I wanted to see him.

Mr. Rankin. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d, after his arrest?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And what answer were you given at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I was not permitted to.

Mr. Rankin. Who gave you that answer?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. The police.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know what officer of the police?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you spend the evening on the night of the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs. Paine, together with Lee's mother.

Mr. Rankin. Did you receive any threats from anyone at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after the assassination, did you have a conversation with him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And where did this occur?

Mrs. Oswald. In the police department.

Mr. Rankin. Were just the two of you together at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, the mother was there together with me.

Mr. Rankin. At that time what did you say to him and what did he say to you?

Mrs. Oswald. You probably know better than I do what I told him.

Mr. Rankin. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to us, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything of that. It was simply talk.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that the police had been there and that a search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a rifle, and I had answered yes.

And he said that if there would be a trial, and that if I am questioned it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer.

Mr. Gopadze. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything she didn't want to—at that time, she told me she knew about that, that she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to.

Mrs. Oswald. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?" And then I understood that he knew about it.

Mr. Gopadze. At that time I did not know.

Mrs. Oswald. I thought you had been told about it because the conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I was talking to Lee—after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was recorded.

Mr. Rankin. Let me see if I can clarify what you were saying.

As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Rankin. And you told Mr. Gopadze you already knew that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. Gopadze. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to.

I said, "That is right."

Mrs. Oswald. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him.

Mr. Gopadze. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission—I would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI in some way, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. He had come with them, and I decided he must have been.

Mr. Rankin. And your ill feeling towards the FBI was——

Mrs. Oswald. He did not tell me that he was with the FBI, but he was with them.

Mr. Rankin. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband was guilty in regard to the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed President Kennedy, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult to believe in that.

Mr. Rankin. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Unfortunately, yes.

Mr. Rankin. And you related those facts that you learned to what you already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him at that time if he had killed Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I said, "I don't believe that you did that, and everything will turn out well."

After all, I couldn't accuse him—after all, he was my husband.

Mr. Rankin. And what did he say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather, he tried to appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that he was afraid.

This was just a feeling. It is hard to describe.

Mr. Rankin. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw in his eyes that caused you to think that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself.

Mr. Rankin. How could you tell that?

Mrs. Oswald. I saw it in his eyes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. After Kennedy—I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me anything, and I didn't see him again.

Mr. Rankin. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do with the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to escape after the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't ask him about that.

Mr. Rankin. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be shot?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you spend the evening of November 23d?

Mrs. Oswald. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be—in a hotel—but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in Dallas, but I don't know the name.

Mr. Rankin. Who was with you at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's mother.

Mr. Rankin. Anyone else?

Mrs. Oswald. No—June and Rachel.

Mr. Rankin. Was Robert with you at all?

Mrs. Oswald. I saw Robert in the police—at the police station, but he did not stay with us at the hotel.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the evening of November 22d, were you at Ruth Paine's house?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what had happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs. Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and said I should not talk and that she would not talk.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say why she would not talk?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She talked to the reporters.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to tell any story?

Mrs. Oswald. She has a mania—only money, money, money.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine about something concerning the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled about, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. And after the quarrel, did you leave there?

Mrs. Oswald. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it to anyone.

On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the photographs when she suggested that?

Mrs. Oswald. She saw it, while I was destroying them.

Mr. Rankin. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?

Mrs. Oswald. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course—many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who said that to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission in order to stay in this country, don't you, now?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission here in order to be able to stay in the country.

Mrs. Oswald. I understand that.

Mr. Rankin. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you could about this matter, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. This is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this.

Mr. Rankin. Did these various people from the police and the Secret Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it?

Mrs. Oswald. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of that office. At least he was a representative of that office.

Mr. Rankin. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it seems to me.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say to you?

Mrs. Oswald. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if I were to help them.

Mr. Rankin. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you?

Mrs. Oswald. In the sense that I would have more rights in this country. I understood it that way.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not understand it that way.

You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if I were to help.

Mr. Rankin. Did you——

Mrs. Oswald. This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel that it was a threat?

Mrs. Oswald. This was not quite a threat—it was not a threat. But it was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I sensed that.

Mr. Rankin. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to work in this country if you cooperated?

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. No.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the Commission about?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, contrived way.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that you felt treated you in that manner?

Mrs. Oswald. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was very attentive towards me.

Mr. Rankin. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your husband was killed?

Mrs. Oswald. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to me, and Gregory—no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert, and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel, we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were supposed to go to the police station to see him.

Mr. Rankin. That was on November 24th, on Sunday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things or perhaps—in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today.

At first he said that it wasn't serious—perhaps just not to frighten me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was told that he had been seriously wounded.

Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I wanted to take several things which I needed with me and asked her to prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring.

Soon after that—Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there, and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had died.

After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed for several days—perhaps two weeks—I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your husband had been shot?

Mrs. Oswald. Two o'clock in the afternoon, I think.

Mr. Rankin. And where were you at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in a car.

Mr. Rankin. Just riding around, or at some particular place?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not at two o'clock—earlier. Lee was shot at 11 o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one.

Mr. Rankin. And where was the car that you were in at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. We were on the way to Chief Curry, en route from the hotel.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do after you went to the motel?

Mrs. Oswald. I left with Robert and we prepared for the funeral.

Then Ruth Paine sent my things to me via the agent.

Mr. Gopadze. She would like a recess for a little while. She has a headache.

The Chairman. Yes, we will recess.

(Brief recess)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, thank you.

The Chairman. Very well.

Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety.

Mrs. Oswald. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of a man to try and escape.

Mr. Rankin. You will recall that in the interviews, after the assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do it, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that.

You must understand that now I only speak the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill President Kennedy.

Mrs. Oswald. I now have enough facts to say that.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was.

Mr. Rankin. You have stated in some of your interviews that your husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you recall when this happened?

Mrs. Oswald. That was in New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Was it more than one occasion?

Mrs. Oswald. When he said that, that was only once.

Mr. Rankin. And do you know what caused him to say that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some happening that caused it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this case?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and many acquaintances.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be so decisive about the case?

Mrs. Oswald. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we lived in New Orleans?

I think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything.

Perhaps she does have something.

But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something that might reveal, uncover this.

Mr. Rankin. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so?

Mrs. Oswald. Never.

I don't want to see her, I didn't want to.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might be helpful to the Commission to know that background.

I hope you will bear with us.

Have you had some differences with your mother-in-law?

Mrs. Oswald. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why. I don't think that she can help you.

But if it is a formality, then, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those differences?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in everything, that she knows more.

This is what our differences are.

Mr. Rankin. And have you responded to her when she said those things?

Mrs. Oswald. She said this by means of newspapers and television.

I haven't seen her.

I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, because she would scratch my eyes out.

Mr. Rankin. Are there any other differences between you and your mother-in-law that you have not described?

Mrs. Oswald. No, there are no more.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. Is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money that he had from any source?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover agent for the FBI.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you believe that he was at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for the CIA at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you believe that he was?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know Jack Ruby, the man that killed your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you ever known of him?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your husband knew Jack Ruby before the killing?

Mrs. Oswald. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent nightclubs, as the papers said.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He didn't drink. Why should he then go?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why Jack Ruby killed your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. About that, Jack Ruby should be questioned.

Mr. Rankin. I have to ask you, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't tell me.

Mr. Rankin. And do you know any reason why he should?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper now, it is an abnormal face.

Mr. Rankin. Has your husband ever mentioned the name Jack Ruby to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you can recall?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he killed Lee.

I would like to consult with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Gopadze.

The Chairman. You may.

(Brief recess)

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, would you like to add something to your testimony?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I will tell you why I left the room.

I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I have not mailed it yet, to the attorney—to the prosecuting attorney who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even—that if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby, and that I wanted to protect him.

It is simply that it is pity to—I feel sorry for another human life. Because this will not return—bring back to life Kennedy or the others who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps they will pay some attention to it.

That is all.

Mr. Rankin. Had you ever been in the Carousel Nightclub?

Mrs. Oswald. I have never been in nightclubs.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know where it was located before your husband was killed by Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know it now either.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was right handed.

His brother writes with his left hand and so does—his brother and mother both write with their left hand.

And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ.

Mr. Rankin. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death penalty imposed?

Mrs. Oswald. In their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing.

In my opinion, it is not so.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything more about the assassination of President Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know anything.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the Commission?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know that.

Mr. Rankin. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia, and ask you about that for a little while.

Can you tell us the time and place of your birth?

Mrs. Oswald. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the Arkhangelskaya Region.

Mr. Rankin. Who were your parents?

Mrs. Oswald. Names?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, please.

Mrs. Oswald. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a laboratory assistant.

Mr. Rankin. And your father?

Mrs. Oswald. And I had a stepfather. I had no father. I never knew him.

Mr. Rankin. Who did you live with as a child?

Mrs. Oswald. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother—grandmother on my mother's side.

Mr. Rankin. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to live with your mother and your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately five years old.

Mr. Rankin. And then you moved to live with your mother and your stepfather, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And was that in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother—also with my half brother and half sister.

Mr. Rankin. What was your stepfather's business?

Mrs. Oswald. He was an electrician in a power station in Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have brothers and sisters?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How many?

Mrs. Oswald. One brother, one sister—from my mother's second marriage.

Mr. Rankin. How old were they?

Mrs. Oswald. How old are they, or were they?

Mr. Rankin. Are they—I mean in comparison with your age. Were they three or four years older than you?

Mrs. Oswald. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is probably 9 years younger than I am. About four years between brother and sister.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. That is, you don't know, or you know he was not?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I know that he was not a member.

Mr. Rankin. Did you live for a period with your mother alone?

Mrs. Oswald. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle—my mother's brother.

Mr. Rankin. What was your stepfather's name?

Mrs. Oswald. Alexandr Ivanovich Medvedev.

Mr. Rankin. When did you leave the home of your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. In 1961. No—1959.

Mr. Rankin. What was your grandfather's occupation?

Mrs. Oswald. On my mother's side?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. He was a ship's captain.

Mr. Rankin. Was he a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He died shortly after the war.

Mr. Rankin. Which war?

Mrs. Oswald. Second.

Mr. Rankin. Did you get along well with your grandparents?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I was their favorite.

Mr. Rankin. Did you get along with your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I was not a good child. I was too fresh with him.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother and your stepfather move to Zguritsa?

Mrs. Oswald. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot of food, and we lived very well.

After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were dekulakized subsequently.

By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very cold.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother have any occupation?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, laboratory assistant—I said that.

Mr. Rankin. Was she a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall when your mother died?

Mrs. Oswald. In 1957.

Mr. Rankin. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How much was it?

Mrs. Oswald. All children received pensions.

We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles.

Mr. Rankin. Was that called a children's pension?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18.

Mr. Rankin. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. It was paid to me directly.

Mr. Rankin. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your stepfather adopt you?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I was not adopted.

Mr. Rankin. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you get along with him?

Mrs. Oswald. I loved them very much, and they loved me.

Mr. Rankin. And your half sister, too?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what schools you went to?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied in a pharmaceutical institute—pharmaceutical school, rather than institute.

Mr. Rankin. Where was the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. Oswald. In Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go through high school before you went to the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers?

Mrs. Oswald. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that nature.

Mr. Rankin. Were you a good student?

Mrs. Oswald. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved me. My language, you know—I talk a lot, and get a good grade.

Mr. Rankin. Did you work part-time while you were going to school?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study.

Mr. Rankin. And what did you do in working?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way.

And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist—as a pharmacist's assistant.

Mr. Rankin. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work?

Mrs. Oswald. I think I received 36 per month—this is new rubles—at that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who always saved something for me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you save any money while you were working before you graduated?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you work after you graduated?

Mrs. Oswald. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would marry again, and, therefore, I left.

But he hasn't married up until now.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is.

Mrs. Oswald. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my diploma?

I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me a new diploma?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you—the Commission hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that——

Mrs. Oswald. They should have treated it a little more carefully, though.

Mr. Rankin. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't our action.

Mrs. Oswald. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry—it is a pity for my diploma.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20.

The Chairman. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission to the school?

Mrs. Oswald. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date of issue and the date of graduation.

Mr. Rankin. Isn't there a place for admission, though?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, there is a place for it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when you were admitted to the school?

Mrs. Oswald. In 1955.

Mr. Krimer. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not for a full date.

Mr. Dulles. 1955, did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, 1955.

Mr. Rankin. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, what were your duties?

Mrs. Oswald. When I worked in the pharmacy?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it.

Mr. Rankin. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and get the job? How was that arranged?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work somewhere else.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay in this first job?

Mrs. Oswald. I was there for three days, which is a probationary period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference which I received after I was going to the United States was not very good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be that a good worker could leave.

Mr. Rankin. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You were not assigned there, then?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go to and work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then they may register, such as Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is, registered in the police department.

Mr. Rankin. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a job, is that what you mean?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to be registered in Leningrad from some other point?

Mrs. Oswald. First you must have relatives who might have some spare living space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. You know money does a great deal everywhere.

Mr. Rankin. And then after you have shown that you have a place to live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to have something else?

Mrs. Oswald. Not always. One has to have connections, acquaintances.

Mr. Rankin. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered.

Mr. Rankin. But since you were registered there, you could have found a position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk instead of staying in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family circumstances.

What can one do?

It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather.

Mr. Rankin. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home that you sought some other city in which to work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did not have enough money to pay for an apartment.

I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed there that would pay you so you could have an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little.

Mr. Rankin. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then?

Mrs. Oswald. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the normal workday is only 6½ hours, because they consider that to be hazardous work.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. What do you mean by social life?

Mr. Rankin. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, pleasant times?

Mrs. Oswald. An awful lot.

Mr. Rankin. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you enjoyed it there?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay there on vacation?

Mrs. Oswald. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I spent in Leningrad with some friends.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the name of the rest home?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the people there to register you?

Mrs. Oswald. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle.

Mr. Rankin. And were you registered there then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. Forty-five, as everywhere.

Mr. Rankin. Was that per week?

Mrs. Oswald. No, that is a month. That is not America.

Mr. Rankin. Is that 45 rubles?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Per month?

Mr. Dulles. Old rubles or new rubles?

Mr. Rankin. Is that old rubles?

Mrs. Oswald. New rubles.

Mr. Rankin. What were your hours in this work?

Mrs. Oswald. 10 a.m., to 4:30 p.m.

Mr. Rankin. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a big city or a small city?

Mrs. Oswald. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military hospital—there the pay is higher.

Mr. Rankin. What was the nature of your work?

Mrs. Oswald. Preparation of prescriptions.

Mr. Rankin. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or did you just put them up yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. I prepared them myself.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a supervisor?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I was responsible for it.

Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not prepare medications—he is only an administrator.

Mr. Rankin. How many days of the week did you work on this job?

Mrs. Oswald. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I didn't work.

Mr. Rankin. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for friends, or somebody would ask us.

Mr. Rankin. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying there?

Mrs. Oswald. No. They had—they were well provided for, and my uncle wanted that I spend the money on myself.

Mr. Rankin. What was the name of this uncle?

Mrs. Oswald. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov.

Mr. Rankin. What was the nature of his work?

Mrs. Oswald. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the Byelorussian SSR.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have something to do with lumbering?

Mrs. Oswald. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry institute. Technical institute.

Mr. Rankin. Is he an officer?

Mrs. Oswald. He was a colonel—a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, very nice.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a telephone in the apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you save money?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in one day—three days tops.

Mr. Rankin. What would you spend it for?

Mrs. Oswald. First all the necessary things which I had to buy—shoes, an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to wear warm clothes.

Mr. Rankin. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he is a Communist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why you were discharged?

Mrs. Oswald. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they didn't know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views because you married an American?

Mrs. Oswald. They didn't say that.

Mr. Rankin. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had them?

Mrs. Oswald. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I think it was sort of insurance.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of the Comsomol?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you attend?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me—I was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly—for what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write."

But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write?

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any objection to being removed from the Comsomol?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you belong to any social clubs there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you belong to any culture groups?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. After you came to the United States, did you correspond with some of these friends?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we made later.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a social life there at Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties or to the opera or theater, or what?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a restaurant.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first meet Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And there I met Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. Oswald. On March 4th.

Mr. Rankin. What year?

Mrs. Oswald. 1961.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you meet him?

Mrs. Oswald. In Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. Yes—but can you tell us the place?

Mrs. Oswald. In the Palace of Trade Unions.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are public meetings?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for parties.

Mr. Rankin. They have dances?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. Rankin. Did someone introduce you to him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Who introduced you?

Mrs. Oswald. I had gone there with my friends from the medical institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee.

Mr. Rankin. What was his name?

Mrs. Oswald. Yuri Mereginsky.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier—this was easier.

Mr. Rankin. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?

Mrs. Oswald. A little. Somewhat similar.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?

Mrs. Oswald. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

Mr. Rankin. Did that make any difference?

Mrs. Oswald. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet Americans very often.

Mr. Rankin. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of times?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him?

Mrs. Oswald. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and he was there.

Mr. Rankin. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there?

Mrs. Oswald. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I should come there, if I could.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn what was wrong with him then?

Mrs. Oswald. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps.

Mr. Rankin. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being there alone.

Mr. Rankin. And did you observe a scar on his left arm?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were married.

Mr. Rankin. What did you find out about that scar?

Mrs. Oswald. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked me never to ask about that again.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn what caused the scar?

Mrs. Oswald. I found out here, now, recently.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some time?

Mrs. Oswald. I found that out now.

Mr. Rankin. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk about America at all?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. What do you recall that he said about it?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said that his home was warmer and that people lived better.

Mr. Rankin. Did he talk about returning?

Mrs. Oswald. Then? No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he describe the life in America as being very attractive?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it.

Mr. Rankin. Did he——

Mrs. Oswald. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was saying good things about America.

Mr. Rankin. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Before you were married, did you find out anything about his plans to return to America?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn anything before you were married about the fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he said no, he could not.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why?

Mrs. Oswald. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would not forgive him such an act.

Mr. Rankin. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would like to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what attracted you to him?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. First, the fact that he was—he didn't look like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when he was courting you?

Mrs. Oswald. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather.

Mr. Rankin. Where was he living at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I never thought that I would wind up living there.

Mr. Rankin. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. We had a small room—one room, kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. A large terrace, balcony.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what he paid for rent?

Mrs. Oswald. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles per month.

Mr. Rankin. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was cheap.

Mr. Rankin. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city?

Mrs. Oswald. No, in that city they have good apartments because the houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot compare it to private houses people live in here.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have an automobile?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is difficult to have an automobile.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a television set?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. No—I don't like television.

Mr. Rankin. Why?

Mrs. Oswald. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the movies.

Mr. Rankin. What was his occupation at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what his work was?

Mrs. Oswald. As an ordinary laborer—metal worker. From that point of view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main thing.

Mr. Rankin. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments?

Mrs. Oswald. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say whether he liked this job?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't like it.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about it?

Mrs. Oswald. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He didn't like that.

Mr. Rankin. Anything else?

Mrs. Oswald. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he liked it or not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked that?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain better living conditions and to get the benefit of them.

Mr. Rankin. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with the Soviet system?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among the masses and see.

But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult.

The Chairman. I think we better adjourn now for the day.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)