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The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m. on February 27, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles and Ford and I are present.

Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. Leech. Paul Leech.

The Chairman. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne who was here representing Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Leech. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each time we convene.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr. Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of evidence.

I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows:

"Dear Mr. Martin:

"Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, 200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

"You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to (1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with her appearance before this Commission.

"The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the necessary details will be arranged when you are here.

"Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137—88th Cong., 1st Session, and the rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence."

I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter?

Mr. Leech. Yes, we did.

The Chairman. I will not be able to be here at all times today because we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in my absence he will conduct hearings.

Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day.

Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Martin. I do.

Mr. Leech. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't been introduced to them.

The Chairman. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American Bar Association.

Mr. Leech. Former president of the American Bar Association?

The Chairman. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's office of the District of Columbia.

Mr. Rankin. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too.

The Chairman. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig.

Mr. Leech. Who is that?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was asked to act in order to protect or advise the Commission as to any interests of Lee H. Oswald because of—you probably saw the notice in the paper and so forth.

Mr. Leech. You represent the man from Arizona?

Mr. Rhyne. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of Texas.

Mr. Leech. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

The Chairman. Of course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And this is the reporter.

All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name?

Mr. Leech. Yes, sir; he does.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please?

Mr. Martin. James Herbert Martin.

Mr. Rankin. Where do you live?

Mr. Martin. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Rankin. How long have you lived there?

Mr. Martin. Since 1956.

Mr. Rankin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Martin. Hotel executive.

Mr. Rankin. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Were you at one time?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And during what period?

Mr. Martin. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964.

Mr. Rankin. What was your position with that institution?

Mr. Martin. Resident manager.

Mr. Rankin. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become acquainted with Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. About when was the first time that you met her?

Mr. Martin. I guess it was November 24.

Mr. Rankin. Of what year?

Mr. Martin. 1963.

Mr. Rankin. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started?

Mr. Martin. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday.

Mr. Rankin. Who was that?

Mr. Martin. Lew Evans.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Martin. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave them several rooms to accommodate the family.

Mr. Rankin. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. Martin. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her.

Mr. Rankin. How did you come to know her then?

Mr. Martin. Well, just through association.

Mr. Rankin. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that?

Mr. Martin. Vaguely, not to any great extent.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your establishment?

Mr. Martin. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort Worth and the isolation of it.

Mr. Rankin. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags Inn, Marina and some of her family?

Mr. Martin. Well, Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Did they have several suites there?

Mr. Martin. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county sheriff about how this would be handled?

Mr. Martin. Yes, Secret Service.

Mr. Rankin. Who, for the Secret Service?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard—I can't remember his first name.

Mr. Rankin. Secret Service man?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Where was this arrangement made?

Mr. Martin. Well, down in the room in the suite.

Mr. Rankin. There at the Six Flags Inn?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And the three of you were there together, were you?

Mr. Martin. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several other Secret Service men.

Mr. Rankin. Who participated in the conversation?

Mr. Martin. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself.

Mr. Rankin. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time?

Mr. Martin. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said about the price and who would make payment?

Mr. Martin. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the room rate on it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors or did you make the decision at that time?

Mr. Martin. No, I made the decision.

Mr. Rankin. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service people before that?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there?

Mr. Martin. I believe she left on Friday.

Mr. Rankin. What day?

Mr. Martin. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not certain as to the exact date.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't recall anything like that.

Mr. Rankin. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any other way at your Six Flags Inn before that?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance.

Mr. Martin. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I don't know of any particular incidents other than——

Mr. Rankin. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina Oswald's rooms?

Mr. Martin. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were rooms next door to it, but not connecting.

Mr. Rankin. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. All the time?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall who that was?

Mr. Martin. Let's see—well, I remember his first name now, Mike Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. They seemed to change quite frequently.

Mr. Rankin. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina?

Mr. Martin. No, except to say hello.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time?

Mr. Martin. From all appearances, she didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags during this early period that you recall?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home for Thanksgiving?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us how that happened?

Mr. Martin. Well, it just happened. I don't know, I think I asked Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in those rooms was pretty cramped.

Mr. Rankin. When was this that you asked Robert?

Mr. Martin. I believe on Wednesday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and her family in the invitation?

Mr. Martin. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He came out to the house also.

Mr. Rankin. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Who all came at that time?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert, Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his name.

Mr. Rankin. What time of the day did they come?

Mr. Martin. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Mr. Rankin. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at that time, too?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to her about it?

Mr. Martin. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to come.

Mr. Rankin. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in your invitation?

Mr. Martin. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by then.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags Inn?

Mr. Martin. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first.

Mr. Rankin. When was that?

Mr. Martin. Thursday or Friday.

Mr. Rankin. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards?

Mr. Martin. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where she was going to go.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall when they made that statement?

Mr. Martin. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday.

Mr. Rankin. At that time did you say anything about that?

Mr. Martin. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her that I would be glad to take them into my home.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive for that?

Mr. Martin. No. There was no compensation considered.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right?

Mr. Martin. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all?

Mr. Martin. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and——

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mr. Martin. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and said that it would work out all right.

Mr. Rankin. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that character?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. With any media?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did you happen to make this offer?

Mr. Martin. I felt sorry for her.

Mr. Rankin. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your home, too?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Anything about Marguerite living there?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you made it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home, how the layout of it was?

Mr. Martin. Well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, dining room, den and kitchen, two baths.

Mr. Rankin. All of it on the same floor?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from the rest of the house?

Mr. Martin. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along the hall.

Mr. Rankin. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the hall?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that right?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours?

Mr. Martin. The next room.

Mr. Rankin. And where was the bath that she used?

Mr. Martin. Right across the hall from it.

Mr. Rankin. And then after Marina's room right next to hers?

Mr. Martin. Is a children's bedroom.

Mr. Rankin. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. About how large was your bedroom?

Mr. Martin. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16.

Mr. Rankin. How large was Marina's room?

Mr. Martin. About 11 by 13.

Mr. Rankin. And the children's room?

Mr. Martin. About the same size.

Mr. Rankin. What children do you have?

Mr. Martin. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a 6-year-old girl.

Mr. Rankin. And they are all living at home?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And they have been throughout this period, have they?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all prior to the time she came to live with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to come in, do you recall the date?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Was it before she came to live with you?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge, I didn't—I think it started after she came into the house.

The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please.

(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. Dulles. Will you proceed, please.

Mr. Rankin. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager first come up.

Mr. Martin. It was after the first of December. She had been there about 3 or 4 days, I guess.

Mr. Rankin. That is 1963?

Mr. Martin. 1963.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us how it came up?

Mr. Martin. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an attorney for Marina.

Mr. Rankin. Who was that?

Mr. Martin. Lee Gopadze.

Mr. Rankin. Where did this conversation occur?

Mr. Martin. In the den.

Mr. Rankin. Who was there?

Mr. Martin. I think Marina was there.

Mr. Rankin. Anyone else?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Rankin. About what time of the day, do you recall?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say that in English?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know whether Marina understood it?

Mr. Martin. Well, he had discussed it with her.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know?

Mr. Martin. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in Russian.

Mr. Rankin. And then he turned to you, did he?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer for her?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about that?

Mr. Martin. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do that?

Mr. Martin. Yes. John Thorne.

Mr. Rankin. How did you happen to select John Thorne?

Mr. Martin. I had known him from association at the Inn.

Mr. Rankin. Had he ever acted as your attorney?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him?

Mr. Martin. Just a passing acquaintance.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this attorney?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze?

Mr. Martin. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie work and he would probably know something about the area in which we were talking.

Mr. Rankin. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer did you do anything about it?

Mr. Martin. I called Mr. Thorne.

Mr. Rankin. On the telephone?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then what happened?

Mr. Martin. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina and Lee Gopadze and myself.

Mr. Rankin. How did he talk to Marina?

Mr. Martin. Well, through Lee Gopadze.

Mr. Rankin. As an interpreter?

Mr. Martin. As an interpreter.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne at that time?

Mr. Martin. I don't understand the question.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed as her lawyer?

Mr. Martin. Handling all her legal work.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell him that?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And did you say anything about what the legal work would involve, the kind of work it would be?

Mr. Martin. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the conversation.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said about the donations at that time?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of compensation?

Mr. Martin. Not at that time. It was later.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his qualifications to act as her attorney?

Mr. Martin. Not that I recall.

Mr. Rankin. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr. Thorne as counsel for Marina?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When was that done?

Mr. Martin. I believe that was December 6.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the interpreter and you were present?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr. Thorne at some time?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You think that was December 6 to your recollection.

Mr. Martin. Either the 5th or the 6th.

Mr. Rankin. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it with Mr. Thorne?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was Marina present when you did?

Mr. Martin. I don't believe so.

Mr. Rankin. Where did this discussion occur?

Mr. Martin. I believe it was at the Inn.

Mr. Rankin. Your office?

Mr. Martin. No, in the coffee shoppe.

Mr. Rankin. Who else was present.

Mr. Martin. No one.

Mr. Rankin. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him?

Mr. Martin. No. I think I left that up to him.

Mr. Rankin. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement?

Mr. Martin. Well, acting for Marina although I had no—I had no contract to that effect.

Mr. Rankin. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze that some counsel be gotten for her?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that time, did you?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any suggestions for changes?

Mr. Martin. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or contributions.

Mr. Rankin. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as manager?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up?

Mr. Martin. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who brought it up?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you suggest that you act as manager?

Mr. Martin. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being the one.

Mr. Rankin. At that time was there any discussion about what compensation you would have?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for acting as attorney?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What was said about that?

Mr. Martin. Well, just that it would be 10 percent.

Mr. Rankin. Had you ever discussed that before with him?

Mr. Martin. Not that I recall.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Dulles. Senator, we welcome you.

Senator Cooper. Thank you.

Mr. Dulles. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where we are in the proceedings?

Mr. Rankin. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that were made.

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you know?

Mr. Martin. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it.

Mr. Rankin. You had discussed it?

Mr. Martin. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as that is concerned.

Mr. Rankin. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at the coffee shoppe that you described?

Mr. Martin. Probably so.

Mr. Rankin. Did you suggest the amount?

Mr. Martin. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. You don't recall whether you did or he did?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk that over with Marina?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Who was present at that time?

Mr. Martin. I believe Lee Gopadze.

Mr. Rankin. Anyone else?

Mr. Martin. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina. One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length.

Mr. Rankin. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the coffee shoppe that you referred to?

Mr. Martin. I believe after.

Mr. Rankin. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Leech. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about?

Mr. Rankin. Thorne contract.

Were you referring to the Thorne contract?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What changes did you make at that time?

Mr. Martin. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and contributions, and we deleted those.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And it has stricken out the words that you have just described with regard to donations and gifts?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279.

Do you know what was meant by that?

Mr. Martin. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn from.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present.

Mr. Rankin. When was that?

Mr. Martin. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't recall the dates.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion?

Mr. Martin. At the house, my home.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to Marina about it?

Mr. Martin. I don't recall any conversation at all.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time?

Mr. Martin. Well, she knew it was 10 percent.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know she knew that?

Mr. Martin. Well, we explained it to her.

Mr. Rankin. Who explained it?

Mr. Martin. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or Robert.

Mr. Rankin. Did she understand English enough to understand what you were talking about?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mr. Martin. Because of her reaction to it.

Mr. Rankin. Did she react about the 10 percent?

Mr. Martin. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite reaction but I could tell she understood it.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you to think that she understood it?

Mr. Martin. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10 cents of a dollar.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything——

Mr. Martin. But she said she understood percents.

Mr. Rankin. How did she say that?

Mr. Martin. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of this contract on donations and contributions from the public?

Mr. Martin. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10 percent.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a good contract for her?

Mr. Martin. I probably did.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what you said?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. You have no recollection about that?

Mr. Martin. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert.

Mr. Rankin. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made by Robert, is that right?

Mr. Leech. Excuse me for just a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Rankin. Back on the record.

Mr. Leech. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her, too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed that day.

Mr. Rankin. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin.

Mr. Martin. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I am not certain, about that.

Mr. Rankin. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share?

Mr. Martin. From the beginning.

Mr. Rankin. Were you present when that matter came up?

Mr. Martin. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate.

Mr. Rankin. When was that request made?

Mr. Martin. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December 4—3d or 4th.

Mr. Rankin. Who was present at that time?

Mr. Martin. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself.

Mr. Rankin. What did Marina say about that at that time?

Mr. Martin. She wanted Robert to have some of the money.

Mr. Rankin. What did Robert say about that?

Mr. Martin. As I recall he didn't say much of anything.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a good idea, a bad idea?

Mr. Martin. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to get?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did she say about that?

Mr. Martin. Ten percent.

Mr. Rankin. She just said 10 percent, is that all?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that Robert should get a share, too?

Mr. Martin. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something.

Representative Ford. May I ask a question?

Mr. Rankin. Surely.

Representative Ford. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin, as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to do for his 10 percent?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for your share?

Mr. Martin. Yes, to sell her story.

Mr. Rankin. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent?

Mr. Martin. Handle all the legal work involved.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to do for his percentage?

Mr. Martin. We said that—let's see—we would discuss with him on various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was—he would take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability.

Mr. Leech. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything more said than you have related about what Robert would do for his share?

Mr. Martin. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would probably be plenty for him to do.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at this time about the percentages?

Mr. Martin. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the contract, of my contract.

Mr. Rankin. Was something said about that?

Mr. Martin. Was 10 years.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Martin. And Marina thought that was too long.

Mr. Rankin. What did she say about that?

Mr. Martin. She said she thought 10 years was too long.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story.

Mr. Rankin. What did she say to that?

Mr. Martin. That they agreed to it.

Mr. Rankin. She agreed then to the 10 years?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was any interpreter present at that time?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. So whatever Marina understood about was from her understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr. Thorne?

Mr. Martin. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that.

Mr. Rankin. Was that in your presence?

Mr. Martin. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume.

Mr. Rankin. But you don't know.

Mr. Martin. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We left the contracts with her for several days.

Mr. Rankin. But you don't know what was done with them?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Because you weren't present.

Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those contracts at that time?

Mr. Martin. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time. But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust Robert's judgment on it.

Mr. Rankin. When did she say that?

Mr. Martin. Just before—I guess the same day she signed it.

Mr. Rankin. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us whether you recognize the signatures on that?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Whose signatures are they?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin.

Mr. Rankin. In the parts that are stricken out——

Mr. Martin. John M. Thorne.

Mr. Rankin. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the discussion of the contract?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was that done when you were there?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe the signing?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Leech. They were not signed the date it says they were signed.

Mr. Martin. On the 5th.

Mr. Leech. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. The contracts were drawn—let's see—the contracts were drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not sure about the days, and signed the contracts.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her signature?

Mr. Martin. Yes, it does.

Mr. Rankin. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you know whose signature that is?

Mr. Martin. John Thorne's.

Mr. Rankin. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No. 279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December.

Mr. Martin. Well, I can't recall the dates on it.

Mr. Leech. Excuse me for just a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Leech. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it? So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at the same time.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Martin, do you know that?

Mr. Martin. I know they were all executed the same time.

Mr. Rankin. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall at this time?

Mr. Martin. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th.

Mr. Rankin. Are you certain what date it was?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. What is your best recollection in that regard?

Mr. Martin. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn that they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract.

Mr. Rankin. You think that might have been December 5 that they were drawn then?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. It has already been admitted.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at 10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Dulles. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please continue with the examination?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr. Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this information developed when some of the members of the Commission are here who might not be at other times during your examination.

Mr. Martin. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and 9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr. Thorne's was drawn the 5th.

Mr. Rankin. Thank you.

I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice President of the United States.

Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. Martin. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him.

Mr. Rankin. Where was this?

Mr. Martin. In Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. What time was it that he came home that night?

Mr. Martin. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed that it was after work.

Mr. Rankin. At about what time of the day was it?

Mr. Martin. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the bathroom and kept him there all day, they said.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside?

Mr. Martin. No, I thought it was a little—I thought the story was a little far-fetched myself.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to her about it?

Mr. Martin. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something like that."

Mr. Rankin. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not?

Mr. Martin. She said it was true.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask a question?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Was this brought up in connection with anything in particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out?

Mr. Martin. It just came out of the blue.

Mr. Dulles. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any background to it?

Mr. Martin. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I think she was talking about Oswald——

Representative Ford. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of comments or was this an unusual circumstance?

Mr. Martin. No. She at times referred to some particular incident in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely unattached to anything that we had been talking about.

Mr. Rankin. What more did you say to her about this incident when she brought it up?

Mr. Martin. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and——

Mr. Rankin. Did you say that to her?

Mr. Martin. No. I just let the thing go.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. Martin. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the bathroom?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did she say about that?

Mr. Martin. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he wasn't.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. Was anybody else present at the time of this statement by her to you?

Mr. Martin. My wife.

Representative Ford. Did your wife make any inquiry?

Mr. Martin. No. We thought it was some kind of a story.

Mr. Rankin. You mean you thought it was an untrue story?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical.

Mr. Rankin. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue?

Mr. Martin. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen to but they didn't sound right.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any?

Mr. Martin. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends.

Mr. Rankin. What did she say in that regard?

Mr. Martin. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some other country.

Mr. Rankin. What did she say?

Mr. Leech. Is this going to be made public?

Mr. Rankin. This might be, yes.

Mr. Martin. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark about she knew—I am trying to think of a specific—one was, let's see, she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a married man there.

Representative Ford. In Leningrad?

Mr. Martin. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice versa.

Representative Ford. But she left one or the other to go to the other because of an association with a married man?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk?

Mr. Martin. Well, it was in the city that she left.

Mr. Rankin. She was getting away from that association, was she?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. By going to the other city?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you something that you don't believe?

Mr. Martin. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that had, we will say, lovers——

Mr. Dulles. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a boy friend in Minsk?

Mr. Martin. After she was here in New Orleans?

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. What did she say about that?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe what it was she told the boy that she wasn't—she wanted to come back to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are saying?

Mr. Martin. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Martin. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it.

Mr. Rankin. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get away from a married man in Leningrad?

Tell us how that came up.

Mr. Martin. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess.

Mr. Rankin. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How many did she tell you about?

Mr. Martin. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two different people or—I would say 10 or 12.

Mr. Rankin. Did she include Lee Oswald among those?

Mr. Martin. Well, you mean as a boy friend?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these boy friends?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. You say you didn't believe these stories?

Mr. Martin. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe them. They were just conversation.

Mr. Rankin. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention, did you tell anyone else about it?

Mr. Martin. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne.

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me just a moment.

Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin.

Mr. Leech. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related this to someone else?

Mr. Martin. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical.

Mr. Rankin. You believed it at first?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true. But then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I supposed it was possible.

Mr. Rankin. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to when Marina told you?

Mr. Martin. The same day. I don't recall the date at all.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it?

Mr. Martin. I just related the incident, what she had told me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission about it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said?

Mr. Martin. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something like that.

Mr. Rankin. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did you say that?

Mr. Martin. No, I did think it would be harmful.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say that to him?

Mr. Martin. I believe so.

Mr. Dulles. Why would it be harmful?

Mr. Martin. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our records.

Senator Cooper. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her?

Mr. Martin. This has been a very confusing 2 months——

Senator Cooper. I know that.

Mr. Martin. To me.

Senator Cooper. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about it.

Mr. Martin. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he would take care of it then.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator Cooper. I think you said that she did at least partly identify the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street.

Mr. Martin. Neely Street.

Mr. Dulles. May I just add there our records indicate they were living on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963.

Senator Cooper. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time?

Mr. Martin. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill him.

Representative Ford. Could she speak English well enough to differentiate between shoot and kill?

Mr. Martin. At the time?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. She could distinguish English that well?

Mr. Redlich. Did she mention a pistol or rifle?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or unemployed at the time?

Mr. Martin. I don't believe so.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in a bathroom for one whole day?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon, any motive?

Mr. Martin. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And she shrugged her shoulders.

Senator Cooper. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill Nixon?

Mr. Martin. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when I asked.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon incident was after the Walker incident.

Mr. Martin. Well, that is what she said.

Mr. Redlich. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you?

Mr. Martin. She just said it was after General Walker.

Mr. Redlich. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident?

Mr. Martin. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she would report him to the police.

Mr. Dulles. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that?

Mr. Martin. She said it was.

Mr. Dulles. She said that?

Mr. Martin. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker.

Mr. Redlich. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which subsequently followed?

Mr. Martin. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it if I had.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any Federal authorities?

Mr. Martin. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes.

Mr. Redlich. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon incident with her?

Mr. Martin. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI.

Mr. Redlich. With regard to what?

Mr. Martin. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had gone there or that he was going.

Mr. Redlich. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to Washington?

Mr. Martin. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions.

Mr. Redlich. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of those interviews?

Mr. Martin. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they could come back the next day.

Mr. Redlich. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her to tell the truth?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI and Secret Service interviews?

Mr. Martin. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked specifically about the Mexico incident.

Mr. Redlich. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. Martin. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had told the FBI.

Mr. Redlich. What did she say?

Mr. Martin. She said no.

Mr. Redlich. What did you say?

Mr. Martin. I don't recall if I said anything.

Representative Ford. Mr. Redlich. I wonder if we couldn't have Mr. Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall——

Mr. Martin. It was in the evening.

Representative Ford. You were sitting around the room?

Mr. Martin. Yes, in the den.

Representative Ford. Just the three of you?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her or just how did the situation arise?

Mr. Martin. I don't recall. I think maybe—I think it just came into conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general.

Mr. Dulles. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any writings she might——

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. —she might produce would include?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. What was your wife's reaction to this story?

Mr. Martin. Well, she couldn't believe it either.

Representative Ford. Did she ask any questions about it such as the ones you have indicated?

Mr. Martin. No, other than the ones I asked.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne.

Is there anyone else you have told this to?

Mr. Martin. Don Levine.

Mr. Redlich. Who?

Mr. Martin. Levine.

Mr. Redlich. Who is he?

Mr. Martin. A writer.

Mr. Redlich. For what publication.

Mr. Martin. He is an author.

Mr. Dulles. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the record.

Mr. Redlich. When did you relate this incident to him?

Mr. Martin. Back in January.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us why you told him?

Mr. Martin. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets the eye, so to speak. He is——

Mr. Dulles. More to what?

Mr. Martin. More to the assassination.

Mr. Dulles. The Nixon story?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination?

Mr. Martin. And he—of course, he is quite familiar with Russian affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut.

Mr. Redlich. That who was.

Mr. Martin. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it was but then I related the story, and he—I cautioned him not to pass it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't.

Mr. Redlich. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the release of this information to Mr. Levine?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the story or the right to write the story?

Mr. Martin. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press.

Mr. Redlich. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And it was during the course of these negotiations that you revealed to him the Nixon incident?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And this, you say, was sometime in January?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine?

Mr. Martin. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald.

Mr. Redlich. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to Robert?

Mr. Martin. I beg your pardon?

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident?

Mr. Martin. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And——

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your house?

Mr. Martin. On Sundays.

Mr. Redlich. And what would he do on these Sundays?

Mr. Martin. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident?

Mr. Martin. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. With any Federal authority?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Could you state again what your advice to her was with regard to the revealing of this incident?

Mr. Martin. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say anything about it.

Mr. Redlich. To anyone?

Mr. Martin. That is right.

Mr. Redlich. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all during your conversations?

Mr. Martin. Not that I recall.

Mr. Redlich. This incident which you regarded of such importance at the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was appearing before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. I don't remember mentioning it to her.

Mr. Redlich. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners?

Mr. Martin. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it.

Mr. Redlich. What did Mr. Thorne say?

Mr. Martin. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that.

Mr. Redlich. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations concerning whether she should mention it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald whether she had mentioned it?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. Redlich. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. I think so.

Mr. Redlich. What did Mr. Thorne say?

Mr. Martin. He said no.

Mr. Redlich. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have mentioned that incident before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. No. I don't know why—the credibility of it didn't sound logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened.

Mr. Redlich. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several days?

Mr. Martin. Yesterday morning.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation?

Mr. Martin. He came out and asked me.

Mr. Redlich. Who is "he"?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in the diary.

Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard of a diary.

Then—which I told him.

He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed the incident to be true?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. At the time you first learned about the incident you thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the same day, isn't that right?

Mr. Martin. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't—we couldn't think of how it could happen.

Mr. Leech. Could we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. Read this brief report into the record.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to read into the record a story which appears in the Washington Post February 22, 1964—27, 1964, dated Houston, Texas, February 26, Associated Press:

"The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the slaying."

Mr. Martin. Now. I did not tell him—I told him exactly what I told you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it.

Mr. Redlich. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented before the Warren Commission?

Mr. Martin. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know about it.

Senator Cooper. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned about it the day before?

Mr. Martin. That is what I told the newspaper reporter.

Senator Cooper. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to somebody the day before?

Mr. Martin. No, it was just a method of brushing him off.

Senator Cooper. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before?

Mr. Martin. No.

Senator Cooper. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about the Nixon incident?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Senator Cooper. General Walker?

Mr. Martin. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard about it was when I read in the newspapers.

Senator Cooper. Then she talked to you about it?

Mr. Martin. I asked her about it.

Senator Cooper. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at General Walker?

Mr. Martin. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought that General Walker was a Fascist.

Senator Cooper. Right.

Mr. Martin. And needed to be killed.

Senator Cooper. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon?

Mr. Martin. No.

Senator Cooper. Didn't talk about that at all?

Mr. Martin. No.

Senator Cooper. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any intentions that he had to kill any other person?

Mr. Martin. No.

Senator Cooper. You are sure of that?

Mr. Martin. Positive.

Senator Cooper. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald might have made about President Kennedy?

Mr. Martin. No. Anything that——

Senator Cooper. You must have talked to her a great deal about this assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Martin. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mr. Martin. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether they were or not.

Senator Cooper. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before and tell us anything——

Mr. Martin. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely tell you. I cannot recall any incident that—of the conversation between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the President.

Mr. Dulles. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Boggs. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long?

Mr. Martin. About 2½ months.

Representative Boggs. You had many conversations with her in that period of time.

Mr. Martin. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom she married?

Mr. Martin. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite right. I mean she doesn't fit.

Representative Boggs. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Martin. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing.

Representative Boggs. Cold in what way?

Mr. Martin. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an American woman, and she was not very upset at all.

Representative Ford. Not upset about the assassination?

Mr. Martin. About her husband.

Representative Ford. About her husband's subsequent death?

Representative Boggs. Well now——

Mr. Martin. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true.

Representative Boggs. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that because of her coolness under very terrific—very difficult conditions and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was?

Mr. Martin. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles.

Mr. Redlich. Would you spell that out in more detail?

Mr. Martin. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum.

Representative Boggs. This may be attributed to lack of energy or laziness.

Mr. Martin. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at all.

Representative Ford. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable emotions?

Mr. Martin. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture—a picture of Jackie Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what.

Representative Boggs. Did she ever do anything or say anything that would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an intelligence system?

Mr. Martin. No. Although I have wondered about it since.

Mr. Redlich. Since when, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of what might happen, might or might not happen.

The Fords also expressed the same opinion.

Mr. Dulles. What do you mean by the same opinion?

Mr. Martin. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction might be and he didn't know what to think.

We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at all.

But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned upside down.

But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there—she came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with us.

Mr. Dulles. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the Fords or how long after she moved?

Mr. Martin. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and——

Mr. Redlich. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her appearance before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct?

Mr. Martin. Right.

Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, and wanted to move back in.

Representative Ford. Who drove her, how did she get there?

Mr. Martin. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife.

Mr. Redlich. Are you finished with what you were about to say?

Mr. Martin. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as her manager or attempting to discharge me.

Representative Boggs. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort of thing.

This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it?

Mr. Martin. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned thing.

Mr. Redlich. Will you spell that out in more detail because when Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy.

Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail?

Mr. Martin. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time. Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have anything to do with her.

Mr. Redlich. Has Marina given you a reason for that?

Mr. Martin. She said she doesn't like her.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did?

Mr. Martin. I knew that he did.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know the reason for that?

Mr. Martin. No. He said he just didn't like her.

Mr. Dulles. He gave no reasons?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as to why she didn't like the Paines?

Mr. Martin. No, I think it is because Robert didn't. That is a thought.

Mr. Redlich. You said that——

Mr. Martin. She has expressed that.

Mr. Redlich. You said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is a preplanned affair. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Martin. Well, I don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but I think probably sometime in December from then on it might have been planned.

We have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story rights.

Representative Boggs. How much?

Mr. Martin. Well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end result, but just on advances, it is $132,000.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, you are reading from a document. Is that something——

Mr. Martin. This I brought for you. We don't have the money. But these are the contracts that have been negotiated.

Mr. Redlich. Is this something you are turning over to the Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes, that is for your information.

Mr. Dulles. What is the nature of this document?

Mr. Martin. It is a handwritten——

Mr. Dulles. By whom?

Mr. Martin. By me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news media that I have contacted in Marina's behalf to sell her movie rights, the TV right, book rights and so forth.

Mr. Dulles. And the amount they have proposed to pay for them?

Mr. Martin. Well, these are just the advances.

Now, in the case of Texitalia Films, for instance——

Mr. Redlich. Could I interrupt and get this identified?

Mr. Martin. Certainly.

Mr. Redlich. With your permission, we would like to introduce this into evidence and take, a photostatic copy and leave you with the original.

Mr. Martin. Certainly.

Mr. Dulles. Would you describe this?

Mr. Redlich. This document lists various publications, media of communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with these various media of publication concerning Marina Oswald's story.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Martin has said this is written in his own hand, is that correct, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office momentarily, I would just like to ask one further question of this witness.

Now, I understand about the business negotiations here and so forth, but I want you to be specific—anything that comes to your mind as to whether or not this woman, anything more than what I asked you about.

Mr. Leech. Can you give us about two minutes in that room?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Redlich. Back on the record.

Mr. Dulles. Just one minute. This should go in the record.

Representative Boggs. Who is this individual?

Mr. Martin. I have been trying to remember his name. I can find out his name. It began with an "H".

Mr. Dulles. Would you repeat the story, please, and then we will continue with the examination.

Mr. Martin. I met a gentleman who is an executive with the Dinkler Hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the Atlanta, in their Atlanta hotel. The maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there was an individual that called, well, the way I heard the story, that she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in history. He made a credit card call to Lee Harvey Oswald, and simply said, "Proceed as planned."

Then he made another telephone call to Jack Ruby and told him that if anything went wrong he knew what to do.

Now, I questioned this, I guess there are numerous rumors of this type or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth, and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a violation of Federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call, and that they finally did report it to the FBI.

Mr. Redlich. The person you were speaking to, as I understand this story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was the telephone operator who overheard the conversation?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Was this a telephone operator in a Dinkler hotel?

Mr. Martin. I didn't get that whether it was in a Dinkler hotel or whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in Atlanta.

Representative Boggs. Did this person have the credit card number and so forth?

Mr. Martin. No. The person that I was talking to?

Representative Boggs. Did the telephone operator have it?

Mr. Martin. The telephone operator did, or the telephone company has the records.

Representative Boggs. Do you have any other information that would indicate that——

Mr. Martin. No, I know this doesn't indicate anything about Marina as far as—no, it is just a strange feeling as far as Marina is concerned. She is too cold.

Mr. Redlich. When did you hear about this story, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. About a week ago.

Mr. Redlich. You haven't discussed it at all with Marina in that week?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to question you again on Congressman Boggs point. You have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that all this was preplanned. Is there anything specific in anything that she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe that she has withheld certain information from you, or this Commission, concerning her knowledge about the assassination?

Mr. Martin. No, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't volunteer anything. She only answered questions.

Representative Ford. This was after the return from the Commission hearing?

Mr. Martin. No, this was sometime ago. That was before——

Representative Ford. Before the Commission hearing where she appeared?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And it was——

Mr. Dulles. Is that all you had on this particular point?

Representative Boggs. Yes.

Mr. Martin. I don't remember what brought it up even. She didn't like the FBI. She said that. And she didn't like to answer questions.

Mr. Redlich. Did she tell you why?

Mr. Martin. No. She just didn't like them. Boguslav in particular.

Mr. Dulles. But her remark was made before her hearing before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. And did not relate then to that hearing.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that there was to reveal before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes. There again I didn't question her about anything that she said in the Commission. I didn't feel it was any of my business for one thing, and all I asked her is how it went, and she would say fine, and that would be the end of it. That is the limit of my questioning her as far as testimony within the Commission was concerned.

Mr. Redlich. Will you tell us how you found out about the General Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. Read it from the newspapers.

Mr. Redlich. When you read about it did you talk to Mrs. Oswald about it?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us the nature of the conversation?

Mr. Martin. Well, I asked her if it was true, and she said yes, and I also asked her who was with Oswald, and she said no one. He did things alone. And, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had written. He had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case he was gone.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina tell you all about this?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. In English?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. She knew English well enough to be able to relate this type of story?

Mr. Martin. She learned very rapidly.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall approximately when that was?

Mr. Martin. No. It was the same day it came out in the paper.

Representative Ford. Did she know of her own knowledge about General Walker? Did she indicate any background information about General Walker?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. She only told what Lee told her about it?

Mr. Martin. Lee told her he was a Fascist.

Mr. Dulles. Did she recount to you, that is, did Marina account to you, what she said to Lee Harvey after this incident, after the Walker incident, after he told her about the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. Yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police also.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, were you aware that Marina Oswald had given this information voluntarily to the Secret Service or the FBI concerning the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever ask her about it?

Mr. Martin. Well, it was in the newspapers so I assumed they knew about it.

Mr. Redlich. And you assumed she had volunteered this information?

Mr. Martin. Well, of course now, I was a little concerned to begin with as to how it got out.

Mr. Redlich. Why were you concerned?

Mr. Martin. Well, if she had told it to the FBI and the FBI only then how did it get in the newspapers?

Mr. Redlich. What was the—you say you were concerned that certain aspects of her story were being released. What was the nature of your concern?

Mr. Martin. Well, I was just wondering how that information got to the newspapers?

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask her?

Mr. Martin. No, I didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper reporters at all.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask any of the agents of the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. Martin. Yes, Mr. Heitman.

Mr. Redlich. What did Mr. Heitman tell you?

Mr. Martin. He said it didn't come from the Dallas office. He said it must have come from Washington. The Houston Chronicle brought it out.

Mr. Redlich. By Washington he meant the Washington office?

Mr. Martin. Of the FBI, the Justice Department.

Mr. Redlich. FBI. That was his opinion as to where this information could come from?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever ask Mrs. Oswald why she had not revealed this information prior to that time?

Mr. Martin. No. I tried to stay as far away from this investigation as possible, because I didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank about it. I figured there are people better equipped than I to ferret out information and they have methods of doing it that I have no idea about.

Mr. Redlich. At that time, however, you were acting as her business representative.

Mr. Martin. Yes. Because I had to refute something in the paper.

Mr. Redlich. Were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story?

Mr. Martin. No. She has never written anything other than the manuscript that she wrote for the Commission. And we have never pre-prepared anything.

Mr. Dulles. Has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge, who have been writing material, Isaac Don Levine, for example?

Mr. Martin. The only one would be Levine.

Mr. Dulles. The only one would be Isaac Don Levine?

Mr. Martin. Levine told me she told him that her husband was a Trotskyite. Now what that means, I don't know but he seemed to think quite a bit.

Mr. Dulles. Marina told Isaac Don Levine?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. That Marina's husband?

Mr. Martin. Lee Oswald was a Trotskyite.

Mr. Dulles. He was a Trotskyite.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy?

Mr. Martin. Well, because this, for instance——

Mr. Redlich. May we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are talking about?

Mr. Chairman, I offer——

Mr. Dulles. Identify it.

Mr. Redlich. In the course of the witness' explanation of his business representation of Mrs. Oswald the witness has presented before this Commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of Mrs. Oswald's story. This document is, we are told, written in Mr. Martin's handwriting. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 325 and ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the Commission and whether its contents are as I have described them.

Mr. Martin. Yes, it is.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Commission Exhibit No. 325 be admitted.

Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 325 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. It is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will be made part of the permanent record of the Commission, and that the original will be returned to the witness.

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case because this was prepared for the Commission?

Mr. Martin. You can have the original.

Mr. Dulles. We will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a photostat for your records.

Mr. Martin. I have it right up here.

Mr. Dulles. Do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short and it might make the record more intelligible.

Mr. Redlich. Since this is in the handwriting of the witness may I suggest that the witness read it?

Mr. Dulles. Right.

Mr. Martin. Texitalia Films, $75,000 movie and the TV rights, World Wide plus $7,500 plus expenses per film appearance, plus $1,500 per—plus expenses for personal appearance. Contract was signed February 11.

Life Magazine was $5,000, North American rights for Lee had photo with rifle and pistol.

Stern Magazine, $12,500, story serial rights for Germany and Italy only, with a 70–30 percent reciprocal for serial rights in Europe, 70 percent to Marina.

Stern Magazine, $2,650 picture rights on the seven photos with same arrangements as above.

Mr. Redlich. Finish the documents.

Mr. Martin. Meredith Press, $25,000 advance on world book rights.

London Daily Mirror $2,200 guarantee on 50–50 reciprocal for British Commonwealth rights on rifle photo.

Detroit Free Press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media thereby leaving themselves liable.

This Week Magazine, $1,500 for 500-word article.

Total is $132,350.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, it is in connection with this document that you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask just one moment before that, how much has been received and how much is——

Mr. Martin. $50,000 of it. The rest is being held, $75,000 in Texitalia Films they have the money.

Mr. Dulles. Who is they?

Mr. Martin. Texitalia Films. But they don't want to part with it until this is settled.

Mr. Redlich. Until what is settled?

Mr. Martin. Until there is an amicable settlement between Marina Oswald and myself.

Mr. Redlich. Concerning your representation of her?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. You mean they are holding their own money and not paying it at the present time?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. It hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind?

Mr. Martin. No. We have received $5,000 from Life Magazine. That is in an escrow account. I have a check for $2,400 from Stern Magazine, which is uncashed because the attorney McKenzie who has been hired by Robert wrote a letter to Stern Magazine saying that I had no authority to make any deals for Marina. So they stopped payment on the check. Of course, I haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting.

Mr. Redlich. At this time, rather than go into the details of these business arrangements, I would like to revert to the question posed earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a patsy.

Would you care to explain that?

Mr. Martin. Well, I have put in approximately 2½; months of good, hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story.

Mr. Redlich. Don't assume we know anything, tell us everything.

Mr. Martin. I had to leave my job at the Inn of the Six Flags to properly handle this which was the first of the year. I could not keep going on both jobs. These contracts were negotiated on the basis of my contract with her, which states that I have full power to sign any contracts for her in these fields.

William McKenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by Robert Oswald, and is acting in his behalf, I guess, although he is using Marina Oswald's name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively, in other words, just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly for it not to have been planned.

Mr. Redlich. What would have been planned? What is the plan that you suspect?

Mr. Martin. Well, the dropping of it—as soon as the money starts to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have been the buffers for the 2½; months prior to that.

The Secret Service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. So they feel perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing all the work that we had put into it.

This was not a decision that was made in two days.

Mr. Redlich. Could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get you off this job?

Mr. Martin. Well, I have letters from—one from Marina and one from McKenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement.

Now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. I have performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of course, those are just advance payments of $132,000. There would be more on royalties after that.

Mr. Dulles. Did you sign these agreements or Mr. Thorne or did Marina sign them?

Mr. Martin. I did.

Mr. Dulles. These agreements with the news media?

Mr. Martin. I did.

Mr. Dulles. You signed them?

Mr. Martin. According to the contract that I have with Marina, "You will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters, persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance by me of any appearance or service. You are authorized, empowered and directed by me."

Mr. Dulles. I think we have a copy of this, do we not?

Mr. Redlich. Yes. You are reading from——

Mr. Martin. My contract.

Mr. Redlich. Yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between James Martin and Marina Oswald is Commission Exhibit 276 which was introduced in connection with Robert Oswald's testimony. Mr. Martin, there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now Commission Exhibits Nos. 274 and 275, a letter from William McKenzie to you and a letter from William McKenzie to Mr. Thorne concerning the discharging of your services.

Do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present time concerning that—the reasons given for your discharge, because I would like to ask you questions concerning that?

Mr. Leech. May I ask the date of the letter please, sir? Give me the date. I think we have the originals, sir.

Mr. Redlich. There is one dated February 18, two of them dated February 18.

Mr. Leech. Yes, one to Jim Martin and one to Mr. John Thorne.

Mr. Redlich. One is addressed to Mr. James Martin and the other to Mr. John Thorne.

Mr. Leech. Yes, sir; we have the originals.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have with you any other letters in connection with the termination of Mr. Martin's services?

Mr. Martin. One from Marina Oswald.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you were building a public image of Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you tell the Commission what you mean by that?

Mr. Martin. Well, in this type of thing——

Mr. Redlich. May I interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through——

Mr. Martin. Excuse me. We were trying to create in the public mind an image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. And I think we did actually. This was for her, as I say, for her benefit. She has received some $68,000 in contributions, and the image is not all true.

Mr. Redlich. Would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the image is not true?

Mr. Martin. Well, as I mentioned before about the bible, this is a very small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in Russian.

This is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a religious person.

She wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't conform to that image.

Mr. Redlich. In what way, how?

Mr. Martin. Well, she is lazy, for one thing.

Mr. Redlich. Lazy in what respect?

Mr. Martin. Well, as far as even taking care of the children. The children bother her. I mean to her they are a constant upset. When she left our home to go up to Denton, my wife offered to keep the baby there at the house if she liked, and Marina took her up on it and then Robert told her she had better take the baby with her. She hadn't seen the baby for over a week. And the first day she was back she was willing to leave the baby again.

Mr. Redlich. Is there anything else?

Mr. Martin. Her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these contributions are concerned. She takes it as a matter of—she takes it for granted. She is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off.

Mr. Redlich. Has she discussed the amount of contributions with you?

Mr. Martin. I have kept her informed all along on it.

Mr. Redlich. Has she indicated that there is some relationship between the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which she will receive?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you be more specific about that?

Mr. Martin. Well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that I haven't written but I have directed.

Mr. Redlich. Directed?

Mr. Martin. By giving them information.

Mr. Redlich. What is the nature——

Mr. Martin. To build it up.

Mr. Redlich. What is the nature of these articles?

Mr. Martin. Well, I recall one, I wonder if I have it, I guess I don't have it, that was written by Bill Burrus of the Times Herald in Dallas. It was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. It is shaded in truth.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have the article with you?

Mr. Martin. Here is one Bill Burrus did that is when she went to midnight mass.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin has submitted to the Commission an article which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it appears, but is headed "Marina Oswald attended mass, had quiet Yule", by Bill Burrus.

Mr. Martin. That was the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. Redlich. Since we would like to question the witness about this, I would like to label it Commission Exhibit No. 326 and ask it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. It will be admitted with no objection.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 326 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. I hand you Commission Exhibit 326, Mr. Martin. Will you tell us in what respects this article is not true?

Mr. Martin. Well, I wouldn't say it is strictly not true. But it embellishes the truth.

Mr. Redlich. Could you be specific in terms of references to the particular article?

Mr. Martin. Well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to church?

Mr. Dulles. Did she go to church?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Leech. It is my partner's church.

Mr. Martin. Well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to Christmas carols over radio or television", which I believe is not true. I don't believe I told that; that was just added in there.

"Marina continued her studies of the English language and watched television, including her favorite Steve Allen show". She doesn't even like Steve Allen. And, of course, she is never studying English.

Mr. Dulles. Was this information that you gave to Mr. Burrus?

Mr. Martin. No. That is the trouble with newspapers. I have told Bill Burrus that she watches Steve Allen. She does but just for lack of anything else to do.

Now I didn't say anything about the Christmas carols nor about studying the English language.

Mr. Dulles. You say she has not been studying the English language?

Mr. Martin. No, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in her own defense in order to converse with people. When she was living with us, there was no one there that spoke Russian so she had to learn English in order to converse.

Mr. Dulles. Is there anything else in this particular article that you would either regard as unslanted or untrue?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Could you give us other examples where——

Mr. Martin. There is the first one.

Mr. Dulles. If you are planning to comment on that I would like to introduce it in evidence.

Mr. Martin. Yes. This will go with it.

Mr. Redlich. The witness has submitted to the Commission an article appearing in the Dallas Times Herald on Sunday, December 15, 1963, the headline reading, "Marina Oswald, all the pity in the world won't help", written by Bill Burrus. This has now been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 327, and I ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. This will be admitted, if there is no objection.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 327 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 327 and ask you to tell the Commission in what respects if any there is material in this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted?

Mr. Martin. Here is a sentence in here, "She pores over the letters reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. The only letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in Russian.

Mr. Redlich. What was her reaction to those letters?

Mr. Martin. Acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. The further it went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether——

Mr. Dulles. Did Burrus get this slanted material from you?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall anything she specifically said in response to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have reached?

Mr. Martin. That she specifically said?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Martin. Well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there was a dollar in it and she said, "Oh, a dollar", and threw it on the table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did, you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all these people are doing for her or trying to do for her.

Mr. Redlich. But you can't recall anything specific that she said which would indicate this lack of compassion?

Mr. Martin. No, other than "the American people are crazy for sending me that money".

Mr. Redlich. Is that a quotation from Mrs. Oswald? She said the American people are crazy for sending this money?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did she elaborate on it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you reply to that?

Mr. Martin. I told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say anything.

Mr. Redlich. Did she make any other comments of that nature?

Mr. Martin. Other than that dollar bill. Those are the only ones I can remember specifically.

Mr. Redlich. Would you continue your examination of Commission Exhibit No. 327?

Mr. Martin. Well, let's see, "unlike her husband, Marina is devout. She is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church", that is not true. She was not a devout Greek orthodox. She was not devout anything so far as religion is concerned.

Mr. Dulles. Did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in that church to you?

Mr. Martin. Well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten June baptized without her husband's knowledge.

Mr. Redlich. You say she was supposed to have, where did you get that information?

Mr. Martin. Well, I read it somewhere prior to this article. This article has it in there. I didn't give him this information. He got it from some other article, and I recall reading it. And when she read this, she commented on it. She said he did know that June was being baptized.

Mr. Redlich. Did she read that?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. In English?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. She knew English well enough to read this?

Mr. Martin. Yes. It took her a while to read it.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to call the attention——

Mr. Martin. This is December 15.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to call the attention of the Commission to the date which is Sunday, December 15. You say as of Sunday, December 15, which is a little over 3 weeks after she came to live with you, Mrs. Oswald knew English well enough to be able to read this and understand it?

Mr. Martin. Not to read it legibly, I mean not to understand every word of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. I was quite amazed at how much she could read. She can't read writing or says she can't, but she can read printing or typing.

Here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers and studying the Russian-English dictionary attempting to understand all the words and talk about her."

She had one child's book that one of the Secret Service men brought her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that.

Mr. Redlich. Where did this information appearing in this story come from? Did you tell that to Mr. Burrus?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. When Mrs. Oswald read this story and saw things that were not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you?

Mr. Martin. On one occasion, let's see, what was it—it may have been in this article. Oh, yes, about the baptism. She said that Lee did know about the baptism. This was gleaned from some place else.

Mr. Dulles. Before or afterward?

Mr. Martin. Well, she said before. Before the baptism.

"She washes clothes for herself and June Lee, she cooks her own meals favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." She did not cook her own meals. She cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half months.

Mr. Redlich. Is this fact one which you related to Mr. Burrus, the fact she cooked her own meals?

Mr. Martin. I didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall what reaction if any Mrs. Oswald had in reading this comment?

Mr. Martin. The only one she commented on was she doesn't like macaroni, it is noodles.

Mr. Redlich. But Mrs. Oswald voiced no objection to your giving this information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not quite true?

Mr. Martin. No. "Marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used and she thinks it is wonderful". Actually, she didn't like it but now in most of this stuff Bill Burrus would ask me a question like, "Does she have a dish washer", and I would say "yes", and he would elaborate on it.

This is quite a sympathetic article. "Marina gets up at about 9 a.m. every day." She always got up between 10 and 11. "She asked Secret Service men to read some of the letters to her". I don't recall any incident where she did.

Mr. Redlich. Was that also a fact which you gave to Mr. Burrus?

Mr. Martin. No.

"As the hours and days tick by Marina watches television and struggles with newspapers. These things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of President Kennedy, Jackie, Lee Oswald, Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the slain police officer. Sometimes she turns off the set." That is not true.

Mr. Redlich. Could you be a little bit more specific about that? Were there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was her reaction?

Mr. Martin. No real reaction at all. Just there on television.

Mr. Dulles. You started to describe earlier I think when she saw a picture of Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and she made certain remarks. I don't know that we finished that.

Mr. Martin. Well, yes; she did. She remarked, "Oh, Jackie, Jackie", and that was it. There wasn't—kind of shook her head. That is in this article, too, and that is true.

Of course, this last paragraph, "The agents speak through curtains and she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". I don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. She has expressed that opinion. She didn't feel that anyone was—anyone intended to harm her.

Mr. Dulles. Did she ever express any ideas about going back to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. She said it once and I questioned her about it. She said she was just—what was it—just joking. She used a funny sounding word for joking. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any further comments with regard to this particular exhibit?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. I suggest this would be a good time for recess, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. All right. The Commission will be adjourned until 3 p.m., this afternoon.

Would you report with your counsel at that time?

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)