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The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.

Mr. Dulles. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order.

Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich?

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her.

Mr. Dulles. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we don't need to touch them again.

Mr. Redlich. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate duplicate facts as we go along.

Mr. Martin. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas——

Mr. Redlich. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the record wouldn't state what they are about.

Are you going to make comment?

Mr. Martin. Do you want me to?

Mr. Redlich. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in evidence, since apparently you are.

Mr. Martin. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is concerned.

Mr. Redlich. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328.

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here?

Mr. Redlich. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No.

Mr. Dulles. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there are any inaccuracies in that statement.

Mr. Martin. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate—"and it was in that motel room, somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex."

That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in our home.

Mr. Dulles. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall until 7:30 in the evening.

Mr. Martin. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving.

Mr. Dulles. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in your home?

Mr. Martin. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day.

This one—

Mr. Redlich. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark."

Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No.

Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect.

Mr. Martin. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached $76,000."

The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That was her total. That is the inaccuracy there.

Mr. Dulles. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole collections?

Mr. Martin. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money.

Mr. Dulles. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not?

Mr. Martin. At that time, yes.

Mr. Dulles. The total collections?

Mr. Martin. At that time, yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have no connection.

I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife.

Mr. Martin. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. You were not aware?

Mr. Martin. Not aware, no.

Mr. Redlich. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News, December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported Hoping to be U.S. Citizen."

This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. None.

Mr. Dulles. Accepted.

(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 330 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330 and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. Martin. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which is inaccurate—"Russian-born Mother of Three—"

Mr. Redlich. Will you state the inaccuracy?

Mr. Martin. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic Americans."

There was no burst of tears.

Mr. Redlich. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was?

Mr. Martin. I would say of happiness rather than—she was glad that that was there, which is normal.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall anything she told you?

Mr. Martin. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?

Mr. Dulles. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly Americans who were giving this money?

Mr. Martin. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another. I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I think it was further on.

Mr. Dulles. On a similar occasion?

Mr. Martin. A little later date, yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina Oswald as you knew them.

Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you knew on the basis of your contact with her?

Mr. Martin. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last very long at the rate it is going.

Mr. Redlich. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she was married to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for $500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between $130 and $135 a month.

Representative Ford. Did she complain about this limited amount?

Mr. Martin. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to it.

Representative Ford. But when more money became available she found ways and means of spending it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that—I told her she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all gone I will go to work." That is——

Mr. Dulles. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had actually been collected on her behalf.

Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports correct in your opinion?

Mr. Martin. Which report?

Mr. Redlich. The report——

Mr. Martin. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true.

Mr. Redlich. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been collected?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. What was your reason for doing it?

Mr. Martin. To—well, the money she had collected was considerable, and most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their entire lifetime.

What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a—enough capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by keeping the figure down figured it would increase.

Mr. Redlich. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a little more specific about your reason?

Mr. Martin. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause.

Mr. Redlich. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her cause?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to revert to a point that you made this morning to clear up the record. You said that you left your job at the Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired?

Mr. Martin. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which paid me to the 1st of January.

Mr. Redlich. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact of her husband's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Are you now——

Mr. Martin. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she went to the Commission.

Mr. Redlich. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. I guess it was from newspaper accounts.

Mr. Redlich. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina about it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the question of her knowledge about it?

Mr. Martin. Let's see—she told me when the FBI was questioning her one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all, and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what else did she learn.

Mr. Redlich. Who else was present at this conversation?

Mr. Martin. I don't think anybody.

Mr. Redlich. Just you and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Dulles. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that?

Mr. Martin. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. At what time?

Mr. Martin. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met her.

Mr. Dulles. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had asked her about it?

Mr. Martin. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had attempted suicide.

Mr. Dulles. And they asked her about it?

Mr. Martin. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her trip—of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask her?

Mr. Martin. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said.

Mr. Redlich. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about that trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. When you were here and she testified did you inquire of her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had.

Mr. Redlich. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident.

Mr. Martin. Right.

Mr. Redlich. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less importance than the Mexican trip?

Mr. Martin. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident.

Mr. Redlich. Do you believe it now?

Mr. Martin. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration other than her say so.

Mr. Redlich. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to whether she should tell this Commission about it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases.

Mr. Redlich. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony with her?

Mr. Martin. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me, "fine," and that was the end of it.

Mr. Redlich. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about to the FBI?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. That is the only one?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her husband's rifle practice?

Mr. Martin. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically asked her at all, whether he practiced.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's ownership of a rifle?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her, did you discuss his ownership of a rifle?

Mr. Martin. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked her about that was how he got there and how he got back.

Mr. Redlich. What did she say?

Mr. Martin. She said he walked and took the bus.

Mr. Redlich. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General Walker with?

Mr. Martin. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed through the news or I thought I was anyway.

Mr. Redlich. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in Dallas or in New Orleans.

Mr. Martin. Let's see—I think I did discuss with her one time at the rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove up in a car.

Mr. Redlich. Who is "they"?

Mr. Martin. The owner of the rifle range.

Mr. Redlich. You say they drove up in a car?

Mr. Martin. He drove up in a car.

Mr. Redlich. The owner of the rifle range?

Mr. Martin. No; Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Redlich. Drove to the rifle range in a car?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And——

Mr. Dulles. Did he drive himself?

Mr. Martin. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing, and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself, and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely.

Mr. Redlich. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about it?

Mr. Martin. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers.

Mr. Redlich. This was something you read. This was not a personal conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range?

Mr. Martin. No, it was a newspaper account.

Mr. Redlich. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs. Oswald concerning rifle practice?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee Oswald's ability as a rifleman?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. No, other than when she told me that she told him that if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she wouldn't have made the threat to him.

Mr. Redlich. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident, Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about having one in the house?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Related to rifles, pistols?

Mr. Martin. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course, she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came up at all.

Representative Ford. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his having a gun in the household?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia.

Mr. Martin. Let's see now—she mentioned one time to both my wife and I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone.

Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's trip to Moscow?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her going out with this old boy friend?

Mr. Martin. She said she did tell him.

Mr. Redlich. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to Moscow?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may have but I don't recall.

Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he was there?

Mr. Martin. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and came back the next day.

Mr. Redlich. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this was a different trip from the one you are talking about?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Is that right?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your recollection she said he went there for one day and returned?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you.

Mr. Martin. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know. Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood.

Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's—The uncle is a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army.

Mr. Redlich. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle?

Mr. Martin. That was all very—always confusing to me because she wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about.

Mr. Dulles. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were not married.

Mr. Martin. Well, no; they were not married to each other.

Mr. Dulles. That is what I mean, yes.

Mr. Martin. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse as an aunt and uncle.

Mr. Redlich. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any?

Mr. Martin. Berlov?

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her education, what school she attended?

Mr. Martin. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade school in high school or junior high, anyway.

Representative Ford. She only referred to the pharmacy training?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. As any special training she received?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. But she did discuss that with you?

Mr. Martin. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished pharmacy school.

Representative Ford. But she didn't discuss any other training or schooling of a special nature.

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee might have had while he was in Russia?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was in Russia?

Mr. Martin. Only that he was unhappy where he was working.

Representative Ford. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work he was doing?

Mr. Martin. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living quarters in Minsk?

Mr. Martin. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the Russians couldn't get.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera.

Now, how much that cost, I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in Russia?

Mr. Martin. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine their expenses there weren't high.

Mr. Redlich. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald may have had apart from his job?

Mr. Martin. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, and she said no.

Mr. Redlich. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. Yes, apparently.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army?

Mr. Martin. No; except she didn't like him.

Mr. Redlich. Did she say why?

Mr. Martin. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the pension.

Mr. Redlich. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties had at the government building where she was working. Other than talking about—she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was.

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor?

Mr. Martin. Vodka.

Representative Ford. When she came to the United States, you could observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind?

Mr. Martin. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, and occasionally she would drink some vodka.

Representative Ford. But not a heavy drinker?

Mr. Martin. No.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs. Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it as far as that is concerned.

But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that Marina has had.

Mr. Redlich. By training you mean what?

Mr. Martin. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such short notice.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would say.

Mr. Redlich. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every morning and she didn't like pancakes.

Mr. Redlich. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have already discussed with you?

Mr. Martin. No, she said that Lee arranged everything.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed any of these individuals with you.

The first is George Bouhe.

Mr. Martin. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned him; Katya Ford has though.

Mr. Redlich. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. Martin. It was relating to Marina—I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now this was after the news was out where she was.

Mr. Redlich. Are you acquainted with——

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was with you in your house?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Redlich. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his wife Jean De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt with anyone else?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before?

Mr. Martin. No. I think I would remember that name.

Mr. Redlich. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Martin. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee Gopadze got there.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know who he is?

Mr. Martin. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul Gregory with you?

Mr. Martin. She mentioned—I don't know which one.

Mr. Redlich. One is the father and one is a son.

Mr. Martin. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned that she liked him.

Mr. Redlich. The older gentleman?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she corresponded with him.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever met him?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Redlich. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him?

Mr. Martin. No. We were—I think John Thorne and I were talking about at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in that instance.

Mr. Redlich. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory?

Mr. Martin. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory.

Mr. Redlich. Nothing on Paul Gregory?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student at the University of Oklahoma?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Are you familiar with—strike that. Do you have any personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. Martin. Elena Hall? No.

Mr. Redlich. Has Marina ever discussed her with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. Martin. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything on it.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us how you came to know her?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by letter, and——

Representative Ford. While she was staying at your home?

Mr. Martin. Yes—well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time she talked to her she talked nearly an hour.

Representative Ford. In Russian or in English?

Mr. Martin. In Russian.

Mr. Dulles. Was it on the telephone?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived in Mrs. Ford's home?

Mr. Martin. I believe she had for a very short time.

Mr. Redlich. You mean Marina related this to you?

Mr. Martin. I think Mrs. Ford told me that.

Mr. Redlich. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs. Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina?

Mr. Martin. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house that they live in.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and——

Mr. Dulles. Once a week?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the letters and didn't call her.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone?

Mr. Martin. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house.

Mr. Redlich. What happened when she came to the house?

Mr. Martin. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den, and I don't believe she knew that she was there.

Mr. Dulles. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with Marina as objecting to receiving the calls?

Mr. Martin. No. That was strictly because the press pressure.

Mr. Dulles. The presence of the press?

Mr. Redlich. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. Martin. Yes, she knew it.

Mr. Redlich. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there.

Mr. Redlich. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you talk to Marina at that time?

Mr. Martin. Well, before and after.

Mr. Redlich. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her?

Mr. Martin. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs. Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room.

Mr. Redlich. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Who did?

Mr. Martin. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later.

Mr. Redlich. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. No, my wife did.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you?

Mr. Martin. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I called her back.

Mr. Redlich. You called Mrs. Paine back?

Mr. Martin. A day or two later, yes.

Mr. Redlich. What did you say to her?

Mr. Martin. I told her that under the present circumstances she just didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some middle point later on.

Mr. Redlich. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she didn't want to see Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to her?

Mr. Martin. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children.

Mr. Redlich. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the Oswald family to New Orleans and had——

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Martin. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something.

Mr. Redlich. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments?

Mr. Martin. She just didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. Redlich. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you describe that meeting?

Mr. Martin. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings.

Mr. Redlich. Who is "we"?

Mr. Martin. John Thorne and I.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall about when this was?

Mr. Martin. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but it was——

Mr. Redlich. There is another occasion when you say she came?

Mr. Martin. When she came to my house.

Mr. Redlich. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier when she came to pick up a package?

Mr. Martin. To deliver a package.

Mr. Redlich. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what happened at that time?

Mr. Martin. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a stiff meeting or conversation.

Representative Ford. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house?

Mr. Martin. No, my house.

Representative Ford. Your house?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food, cookies, things like that, for Marina, and——

Mr. Dulles. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a third——

Mr. Martin. The package came through the mail.

Mr. Dulles. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were, I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the living room making quite a bit of noise.

Mr. Dulles. Mrs. Paine's children?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in, I guess, 15 minutes.

Mr. Redlich. What did Mrs. Paine say to you?

Mr. Martin. Oh, boy——

Mr. Dulles. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house, I realize that.

Mr. Martin. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she didn't.

Mr. Redlich. You mean her children were running around the house though, weren't they?

Mr. Martin. Her children were running in the living room and dining room.

Mr. Dulles. But not into the den?

Mr. Martin. But not into the den and kitchen.

Representative Ford. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the den off?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and didn't invite her in.

Mr. Dulles. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's, roughly, a few miles?

Mr. Martin. No, a good 20 miles.

Mr. Dulles. A good 20 miles?

Mr. Martin. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about 8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles.

Mr. Redlich. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that time?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Was this at Marina's urging?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that—that is what Wanda said, she looked upset at that time.

Representative Ford. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was in the house?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. Dulles. Did she ask where she was, specifically?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. She didn't ask?

Mr. Redlich. What was the purpose of her visit?

Mr. Martin. I don't believe—let's see, she may have brought something that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was first.

Mr. Redlich. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you elaborate on that?

Mr. Martin. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I. We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would relay that information to her.

So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any representation. She didn't want any more——

Mr. Redlich. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it.

Representative Ford. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Was it in December or January?

Mr. Martin. It was in January, I believe.

Mr. Redlich. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation for Lee.

Mr. Redlich. Did you tell her this in English?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could understand.

Mr. Dulles. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. Redlich. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine, visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American Civil Liberties Union business.

Mr. Martin. It was right after—these incidents happened rather closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union—well, first we received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see Marina Oswald.

Representative Ford. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what?

Mr. Martin. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which you have there. Do you have that?

Mr. Redlich. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce it at an appropriate time.

Mr. Martin. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas. This gentleman called, what was his name?

Mr. Leech. I can't remember it.

Mr. Redlich. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name Olds?

Mr. Martin. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented, that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth.

John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being observed.

Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to the FBI.

Mr. Leech. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this time?

Mr. Martin. There were a number of press releases at that time also that she was being held incognito and not able to——

Mr. Redlich. You mean incognito or incommunicado?

Mr. Martin. Incommunicado.

Representative Ford. Press releases by whom?

Mr. Martin. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian.

Representative Ford. In Russian?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter?

Mr. Martin. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see her.

Mr. Redlich. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her own volition?

Mr. Martin. Her own.

Mr. Dulles. She never talked to you about what was in the letter?

Mr. Martin. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them.

Mr. Dulles. In two pages?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was quoted, in the Worker.

Representative Ford. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible, a copy of the original of that letter.

Mr. Martin. You probably can get it from Greg Olds.

Mr. Dulles. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that.

That was dated sometime in the middle of January?

Mr. Martin. I believe so. The letter you have—she wadded the letter up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think, that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that letter, the English copy of which you have.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or 4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of clarity in the record.

Mr. Dulles. Good. It is a good time for a breather.

(Short recess.)

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?

Mr. Redlich. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask your questions prior to your leaving.

Representative Ford. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?

Mr. Redlich. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No.

Mr. Dulles. It will be introduced.

(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Have you seen it?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.

The Chairman. Go ahead.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a copy of this letter in Russian?

Mr. Martin. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.

Mr. Dulles. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. At about the same time?

Mr. Martin. Yes, it was the same day.

Mr. Dulles. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you not say?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.

Mr. Dulles. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Martin. I don't know.

Mr. Dulles. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Martin. It may have been, yes.

Representative Ford. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Martin. Her answer is what he wanted to get.

Mr. Redlich. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get both a copy of the letter and their answer.

Mr. Dulles. Their statement in this letter is the English of the Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be adequate, wouldn't it?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.

Mr. Redlich. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.

Representative Ford. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. Was that her attitude when you first met her?

Mr. Martin. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of December.

Representative Ford. When you first discussed it with her, what was her attitude?

Mr. Martin. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.

Representative Ford. But did she indicate when you first discussed the question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?

Mr. Martin. She thought he was guilty.

Representative Ford. The first time you discussed the matter?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did she indicate why?

Mr. Martin. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.

Representative Ford. At that point had she——

Mr. Martin. A woman's feeling.

Representative Ford. At that point had she been given or shown the evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal Government?

Mr. Martin. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of the questioning at all.

Mr. Dulles. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as you know at that period?

Mr. Martin. Some of them, yes.

Mr. Dulles. Newspapers, I mean.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. From that first conversation you had with her about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never changed her mind?

Mr. Martin. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he was guilty.

Representative Ford. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?

Mr. Martin. The only time she said anything about it was that he told her not to worry and to make sure and get the—get June a pair of shoes.

Representative Ford. She told you that is what he said to her?

Mr. Martin. That is what he said, yes.

Representative Ford. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you about the conversation?

Mr. Martin. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Other than what you have indicated?

Mr. Martin. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.

Representative Ford. Did you ever ask her about this conversation that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. Martin. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be recognized when she went out.

Representative Ford. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.

Representative Ford. She liked the previous way it was?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. How about the change in clothes, the type that she wore?

Mr. Martin. Well, of course, that was for the better.

Representative Ford. Did she like it?

Mr. Martin. She liked the clothes, yes.

Representative Ford. That is all.

Mr. Martin. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't stand makeup.

Mr. Redlich. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in your home.

Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have asked you about that you—who attempted to contact her while she was living at your home?

Mr. Martin. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov—he is of the Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.

Mr. Redlich. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other than in an official capacity?

(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Martin. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.

Mr. Redlich. There were no other friends of hers that you know about who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home?

Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller—the first name is Teofil, the last name is Meller.

Mr. Martin. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.

(Discussion off the record.)

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Martin. There was no telephone number involved.

Mr. Redlich. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while she was living at your home?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?

Mr. Martin. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he stood back—I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She said they were separated.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's desire to go to Cuba?

Mr. Martin. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he wanted—because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.

Mr. Redlich. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to Cuba?

Mr. Martin. No. Not at all.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was making to get to and live in Cuba?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any—your knowledge about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?

Mr. Martin. I have no knowledge at all of that.

Mr. Redlich. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the custody of the Dallas police?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had any direct conversation with her at all.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.

Mr. Martin. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the only place I heard it.

Mr. Redlich. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of the United States Government?

Mr. Martin. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the only reference she has made to anything like that.

Mr. Redlich. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of Marguerite Oswald in that respect?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you relate those conversations to us?

Mr. Martin. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.

Mr. Redlich. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in any publication.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. All right.

Mr. Martin. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was telling me this—no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from the Inn to my home.

Mr. Redlich. By the Inn you mean——

Mr. Martin. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that he had come home Thursday night and that——

Mr. Dulles. In Russian?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. This was a conversation in Russian?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.

Mr. Dulles. Afterwards or as it took place.

Mr. Martin. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on the dresser, which was strange.

Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.

Mr. Redlich. You have had no other conversations with her with regard to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?

Mr. Martin. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is about the extent of it.

Mr. Redlich. Was it ever translated for you?

Mr. Martin. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to be inaccurate?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.

Mr. Redlich. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her television appearance in January on CBS television?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any portions of that interview which you now believe to be inaccurate in any respect?

Mr. Martin. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.

Mr. Redlich. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those answers were accurate?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as being——

Mr. Redlich. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative prepared by or for Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Prepared by or for?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Martin. You mean other than newspaper articles?

Mr. Redlich. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this morning and this afternoon.

Mr. Martin. Life magazine.

Mr. Redlich. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life magazine?

Mr. Martin. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.

Mr. Redlich. When was that?

Mr. Martin. Saturday—Friday—she was here in Washington.

Mr. Redlich. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, February 6.

Mr. Martin. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.

Mr. Redlich. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony is that correct?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Were you with her during the course of that interview?

Mr. Martin. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night because Secret Service was still with her.

Mr. Redlich. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. That would be February 6?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Were you with her during the course of this interview?

Mr. Martin. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her around the restaurant.

Mr. Redlich. Have you read the interview?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Martin. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it definite, make a definite statement on it.

Mr. Redlich. On the basis of conversations which you had during the course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony which she presented before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that under oath she would tell the truth.

Mr. Redlich. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?

Mr. Martin. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract with her.

Mr. Redlich. Have you received any communication from her which raises questions as to whether you are still her business representative?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

The Chairman. Are we really concerned with that?

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before this Commission.

The Chairman. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.

Mr. Redlich. I merely wanted to establish the fact of——

The Chairman. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his business and not ours.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. No. There was no reason given.

Mr. Redlich. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you tell us about your association with him?

Mr. Martin. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the hotel.

Mr. Dulles. What year was this?

Mr. Martin. About 1955.

Mr. Dulles. I just want to get the general area.

Mr. Martin. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have been in his place twice.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.

Mr. Dulles. That is what you mean by his place?

Mr. Martin. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a half.

The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I had—I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before opening hours.

Mr. Redlich. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's business establishment?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?

Mr. Martin. No. An acquaintance.

Mr. Redlich. Have you gone out socially?

Mr. Martin. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went over there or not, I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident.

Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. Martin. They contacted us——

Mr. Redlich. Who is "they"?

Mr. Martin. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina which we didn't think was necessary.

They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were of the opinion—what they were trying to do was find out who else was involved—this was right after the announcement was made in the paper about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.

Mr. Dulles. This was some time before the 22d.

Mr. Martin. No, it was after.

Mr. Dulles. After November 22?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the paper that——

Mr. Dulles. Oh, yes.

Mr. Martin. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.

Mr. Dulles. The actual attack was in April. This was after the newspaper announcement.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

The Chairman. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to kill him which was after the assassination?

Mr. Martin. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Martin. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told them that there was just one person involved.

Mr. Redlich. At the time did you ask Marina about this?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And this is what she told you?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. The persons involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There was no one with him.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you have forwarded to this Commission.

As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief session at which time your testimony would be completed.

Mr. Martin. All right.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of Mr. Martin at this time?

The Chairman. Would you like to ask your client any questions?

Mr. Leech. No. I am not going to make that mistake.

(Laughter.)

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Dulles. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I don't think I have any further questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?

Mr. Rankin. Until 9 o'clock.

The Chairman. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)