Читать книгу The Warren Commission Report: The Official Report on the Assassination of President Kennedy - U.S. Government - Страница 26

Table of Contents

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:30 p.m.

Mr. Dulles. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Jenner. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow workers.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And would you identify those fellow workers, please?

Mr. Oswald. If I might——

Mr. McKenzie. I ask you to withdraw that.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"?

Mr. Dulles. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was phrased?

Mr. McKenzie. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please.

Mr. Jenner. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees.

Mr. McKenzie. That is fine.

Mr. Jenner. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please identify those gentlemen?

Mr. Oswald. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas division plant manager.

Mr. Jenner. Of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. Oswald. Of Acme Brick Co.

And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new Denton plants.

Mr. Jenner. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination or attempted assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, either all or some of you gentlemen.

Whose automobile was that?

Mr. Oswald. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr. Burnett Henry's automobile.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it—did the automobile have a radio in it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Jenner. And listening to it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we were.

Mr. Jenner. Were you listening to anything in particular?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mr. Oswald. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. And you record the time in your notebook?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—as approximately 1 p.m., sir.

Mr. Jenner. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum.

You record on pages 4 and 5—I think towards the bottom of page 4, and the upper portion of page 5—your meeting that day or early evening with Marina and, I believe your mother—but at least Marina.

Is that correct?

In Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And where did this visit take place—where did you meet her on this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. At the Dallas police station.

Mr. Jenner. Did she have either or both of her children with her?

Mr. Oswald. She had both of her children with her.

Mr. Jenner. That would include the infant Rachel?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that her second child had been born to her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not been.

Mr. Jenner. And this was the first information you had on this subject?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. You probably knew that a child was contemplated.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he might not.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the child Rachel had been born?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not been advised.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an interpreter there at that time?

Mr. Oswald. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an interpreter.

Mr. Jenner. You have now named everybody present—yourself, Marina, and her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Oswald. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in uniform or plain clothes?

Mr. Oswald. Plain clothes.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Paine was not there at this time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he was not.

Mr. Dulles. He came later that day, did he?

Mr. Oswald. Just a very few minutes after this meeting.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and Marina and between her and others in the party?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete surprise to you?

Mr. Oswald. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of statement to that effect.

Mr. Jenner. Did you express surprise?

Mr. Oswald. I feel certain that I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall now—you walked into the room, and there was Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for us?

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she possibly—this I am not clear—advised me of the second child. If she did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was.

Mr. Jenner. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum—and it may very well be—that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or conference with your mother?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And was that—in whose presence was that conference?

Mr. Oswald. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the Dallas police station.

Mr. Jenner. Do you record that event in your memorandum?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5.

Mr. Jenner. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. Jenner. Do I interpret your writing correctly?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant Cummings.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas police force?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings, Lieutenant Cummings, or some other—well, I don't want to interpret what you do record—but you received a report at that time, according to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in connection with the murder of Officer Tippit.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the first information you had that your brother had actually been arrested in connection with that incident?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. When had you first received information in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, and possibly the President of the United States.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Page 7—did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And of whom did you make that request?

First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that day or evening?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that request?

Mr. Oswald. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz.

Mr. Jenner. And what was his response?

Mr. Oswald. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me later.

Mr. Jenner. And did you see Captain Fritz later?

Mr. Oswald. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz.

Mr. Jenner. What was the disposition of your—at least as of that day—of your request to see your brother?

Mr. Oswald. None, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Not decided either way?

Mr. Oswald. I never did receive an answer either way, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

And you eventually left the police station, did you?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening?

Mr. Oswald. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas police office?

Mr. Jenner. Yes—start there, and trace your steps to the time you retired for the evening.

Mr. Oswald. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office—I walked to my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away.

Mr. Jenner. About what time of day or evening was this?

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at night, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you were going?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any with you, with respect to where you might or could go?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Proceed, please.

Mr. Oswald. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80.

Mr. Jenner. You were then—you then had in mind doing what—returning home?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my thoughts at that particular time.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears."

Do you find that expression on page 7?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears"?

Mr. Oswald. What I meant by that statement, sir—not being disrespectful—I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of Governor Connally, of Texas.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You were then driving in your automobile.

Did you actually reach Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And then what did you do?

Mr. Oswald. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving, except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight or something of that character?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did you go?

Mr. Oswald. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Does that have a highway number?

I notice you mentioned a Highway 80.

Is that the same as the turnpike?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain that, please?

Mr. Oswald. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas, the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway.

Mr. McKenzie. And a toll road.

Mr. Oswald. And a toll road.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. But you returned by the toll road?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.

I take it you continued your drive—continued to drive along, while you were attempting to rearrange your thoughts.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you eventually arrived where?

Mr. Oswald. At Dallas, Tex., sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register anywhere?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mr. Oswald. At the Statler Hilton Hotel.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody.

Mr. Jenner. Who was that?

Mr. Oswald. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I stopped to buy gas.

Mr. Jenner. But other than that incident, you had no contact with anyone?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You registered?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to your room?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Dulles. Approximately what time was this?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir.

Mr. Jenner. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did you go somewhere?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact, go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down the street, to the Dallas police station again.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

You went across the street to the Dallas City police station?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had an appointment?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. What was your purpose in going across the street for that visit?

Mr. Oswald. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible.

Mr. Jenner. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a small office.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall their names?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, did they?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, and belief, at that time?

Mr. Oswald. It most certainly was, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.

When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, November 22, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it is.

Mr. Jenner. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed to you? What were your thoughts?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just shook my head.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it.

Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to see him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on your part that you wished to see your brother?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you do that evening?

Mr. Oswald. I returned to my hotel, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And retired?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. And I might add I did register under my regular name at the Statler Hilton.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it was so.

On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave. Isn't that correct, sir?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you also record an observation by one or both of the barbers, I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."

That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in that conversation, and you merely listened.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."

Mr. Oswald. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time was that for the first time I was listening to somebody other than police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a reaction, either—pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or been accused of.

Mr. Jenner. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a fair and impartial trial?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events—you were then in the district attorney's office?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. Henry Wade.

Mr. Jenner. And what office did he hold?

Mr. Oswald. Dallas District Attorney.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie?

Mr. Oswald. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade.

Mr. Jenner. On page 10 you use—you make a reference to, or a comment with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too informative." Do you find that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring to—if I may elaborate on that.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you elaborate.

Mr. Oswald. "Not too informative on either side."

Mr. Jenner. Either side of what?

Mr. Oswald. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and my side as the other side.

Mr. Jenner. On what issue?

Mr. Oswald. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that had been—that he had been charged with.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn to page 12?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed him.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you?

Mr. Oswald. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation with him?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you use an expression also there that you would do your best. Do you find that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir?

Mr. Oswald. To find out.

Mr. Jenner. From whom?

Mr. Oswald. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our——

Mr. Jenner. Your prospective interview?

Mr. Oswald. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been accused of.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did you see your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mr. Oswald. Dallas police station.

Mr. Jenner. Will you describe the surroundings?

Mr. Oswald. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police officer—Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret Service joined us, and one agent, Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was advised that he was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side from the unlocked side.

And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass.

Mr. Dulles. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your brother that you were the one who was coming to see him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to see you, and I gained the impression from that——

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—whether or not I meant by that that—I do not believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because I was not aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to see.

Mr. Jenner. Did you converse with your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. By what means?

Mr. Oswald. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass partition.

Mr. Dulles. How far apart were you, roughly?

Mr. Oswald. Just a matter of inches.

Mr. Jenner. How long were you in that room, conversing with your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. Oswald. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement to me was "How are you?"

My reply was "I am fine."

I asked him how he was—as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face. He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say anything because the line is apparently tapped."

I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Just do your best.

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family.

Mr. Jenner. His family?

Mr. Oswald. About the family, including his family, my family. And, also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular—I believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?"

His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines will take care of them"—that his friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily.

Mr. Jenner. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were not mine.

Mr. Jenner. Did he respond to that?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had Marina seen him the day before?

Mr. McKenzie. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before.

Mr. Oswald. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the family to see him.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you raise that, or did he?

Mr. Oswald. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

Mr. Oswald. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not aware of it at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Not aware that the baby had been born?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did he respond to that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Oswald. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes."

Mr. Jenner. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of this child?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You record on page 13 of your memorandum—you use this expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew."

Do you find that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read that full sentence?

Mr. Oswald. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they would take care of Marina and the children."

Excuse me—I started too soon.

Mr. Jenner. That is all right.

Mr. Oswald. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew."

Mr. Jenner. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got through to him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Jenner. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was not talking to the Lee I knew"?

Mr. Oswald. I was referring more specifically to the first part of our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously stated, very mechanical.

Mr. Jenner. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to you?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Alive, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had left your brother—you have an expression there along the lines that you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to person, that things might have been different. Do you find that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that?

Mr. Oswald. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard.

Our discussion was of the nature—I related to them as best I could remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of the President of the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to obtain more information from him?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a fair summary?

Mr. Oswald. That is, sir.

Mr. Jenner. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr. McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me.

Mr. McKenzie. No—that is all right.

Mr. Jenner. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination.

On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr. McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given to all of the questions I have put to him.

Mr. McKenzie. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Dulles. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share it for the Commission.

Mr. Oswald. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time——

Mr. Jenner. Would you like to add anything?

Mr. Oswald. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my memorandum, on page 12.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find out the truth and nothing else."

Thank you.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

I have one question, only one.

You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at the airport, upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk with him.

Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances where he appeared to desire publicity?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that I felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home, in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my home.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. May I ask one further thing?

What is your religion?

Mr. Oswald. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And were all three of you boys so reared?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, we were.

Mr. Jenner. All three of you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we were.

Mr. Jenner. I have nothing further.

Mr. Dulles. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank you for it.

Mr. Oswald. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help.

Mr. Jenner. You have.

Mr. McKenzie. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald your statement for the record.

I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir.

Mr. Dulles. These are to be put to your client?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time—that the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded along.

Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself, and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H. Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and further agreed that their services will be available at all times to yourself and that you will use same as required by you.

Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr. John M. Thorne to represent you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he has not.

Mr. McKenzie. All right, sir.

Mr. Dulles. May I just ask one question?

Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer?

Mr. Oswald. He is my selected lawyer.

Mr. McKenzie. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in your diary, but reported in the letters to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which has been introduced into evidence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities.

Mr. McKenzie. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your knowledge?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she has.

Mr. McKenzie. And where was that, sir?

Mr. Oswald. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas, Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You are speaking now of June?

Mr. Oswald. I am speaking now of June.

Mr. McKenzie. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I refer to what particular church or denomination.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church.

Mr. McKenzie. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Mr. Oswald. I do, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Has she professed such faith to you?

Mr. Oswald. Not directly, sir—only by implication, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things.

Mr. McKenzie. Now, do you think she is a Communist?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at this time or since she arrived in this country?

Mr. Oswald. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my observations of her reactions and her conversations with me.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached or briefed you—and if you don't understand what I mean by the word "coached" please tell me so—as to what you should testify here before this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use conjecture?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; you have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Has anyone?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Have you told the Commission——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—that anyone includes any member of the staff of this Commission?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his position with any government agency or individual.

Mr. McKenzie. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, or the facts as you know them now?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. McKenzie. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of your recollection in each instance?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. McKenzie. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your attention?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do so.

Mr. Dulles. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you, yourself, find any mistakes—I think you said if it was called to his attention——

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I certainly will.

Mr. Dulles. May I just add here—I hope that that will be looked over, the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any corrections within a reasonable length of time.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will do so.

Mr. Jenner. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive.

Mr. McKenzie. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach Sunday school and be with my children.

Mr. Oswald. And I with mine, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it done.

Mr. Jenner. Send it to Mr. Rankin.

Mr. McKenzie. I shall.

If you receive from any source any further documentary information or any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in preparing its final report?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Dulles. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly do.

Mr. Jenner. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any other form of welfare aid?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the State of Louisiana.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct—or any other State of the United States.

Mr. McKenzie. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but I want to make it absolutely clear.

Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government.

Mr. McKenzie. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. My position with any news media, whether it be the newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that—no comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very early date, was that I would abide by the decision of the Commission which is now known as the Warren Committee.

Mr. McKenzie. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement to the press at any time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald expressing sympathy for President's family?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. McKenzie. And if you will, state the source of your recollection and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any statement to that effect to yourself.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November 25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of the United States.

Mr. McKenzie. And was there anyone else present at that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You observed that on television, I gather?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. McKenzie. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which she might have said?

Mr. Oswald. It is possible that they did, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this Commission?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Now, you have testified that you have not given any statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission.

Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning?

Mr. Oswald. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section, entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. McKenzie. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKenzie. All right, sir.

Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. McKenzie. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do you recall that testimony—the testimony of just a few minutes ago?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. McKenzie. Have you previously testified to that before the Commission, to your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that during our first session on February 20, 1963.

Mr. McKenzie. When you were in the jail—and I believe it is in the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail—I mean the Dallas City Jail—talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at that time if he had committed the crime?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. McKenzie. You did ask him that question?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKenzie. And what did he say?

Mr. Oswald. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Identify the page, please.

Mr. Oswald. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied 'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'"

Mr. Jenner. Is that all he said? He said nothing else?

Mr. Oswald. To that——

Mr. Jenner. In response to you?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone while you were in that—the sixth floor—did he affirmatively deny either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President?

Mr. Oswald. He did not admit to anything whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Nor did he deny it affirmatively—other than the remark that you have recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. He did not admit to anything, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. And he didn't deny anything?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you believed a denial?

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question.

Mr. McKenzie. It says in this article that he told the Commission that he believed the denial.

Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my recollection.

Mr. McKenzie. That is correct.

Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought to my attention or that I have read.

Mr. McKenzie. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jenner. May I ask one question?

Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the sixth floor of the Dallas—is that Dallas County?

Mr. McKenzie. No; it is Dallas City Jail.

Mr. Jenner. Dallas City Jail—had I had any conversation with you at all on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mr. McKenzie. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Dulles—is he now released from his oath to the Commission, subject to recall and being resworn?

Mr. Dulles. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. That is correct. That is my understanding.

In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McKenzie. Thank you, sir.

I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr. Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself as counsel, and Mr. Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr. Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known to the President of the United States to use at his discretion.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. Jenner. May I ask one more question?

Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe you had.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this was on the first session, during the first session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964.

Mr. Jenner. Was it in this room?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. That is all I meant. I had no separate—no conversation with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to you in the presence of the Commission.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mr. Dulles. And a part of the record.

Mr. Jenner. And as part of the record; yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. We will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)