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The President's Commission reconvened at 1:15 p.m.

Mr. Dulles. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you—may I inquire of you whether during the noon hour recess you have read Commission Exhibit 295, which is a letter of November 26, 1959, from your brother to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And have you also read the letter that preceded that one, to wit, the letter of November 8, 1959, which is to you from your brother, which is Commission Exhibit No. 294?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, the letter of November 8, which is the earlier of these two letters—this was written by Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after he arrived in Moscow in 1959. In substance, he said in the letter that he supposed his brother Robert, the witness here, did not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of Lee Harvey Oswald's decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship there, since Robert would not be able—and now I quote—"to comprehend my reasons"—that is Lee Harvey Oswald's reasons. "You really don't know anything about me. Do you know for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for months?"

The letter also said that he would not leave the Soviet Union under any conditions, and would never return to the United States, "which is a country I hate." He made reference to the fact that he received a telegram from Robert in which Robert had apparently said that he thought Lee "was making a mistake."

Now, directing your attention to the November 8 letter first, would you please state your reaction when you read that letter?

(At this point the letters of November 8, 1959 and November 26, 1959 were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony. In order to achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed transcript. They are reproduced in the exhibit section as Commission Exhibits Nos. 294 and 295.)

Mr. Oswald. I recall my reactions to this letter, sir. It was something I more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in general what the newspapers had been publishing.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the only reason you make that remark—that you had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have that expectation?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening. My reaction to the letter, as I have stated, was solely in general expecting from what I read in the newspaper that the letter would be something of this nature when I did hear from him.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any conversation prior thereto during your lifetime and that of your brother Lee in which he expressed his views of the character that he wrote in this letter of November 8, 1959?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I most certainly did not.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation between you and your brother Lee, with or without your brother John present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the government of the United States had been discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; at no time, as I stated yesterday, have we ever discussed politics, and most assuredly I did not have any inclination in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind.

Mr. Jenner. So the views expressed by your brother in the letter of November 8 came to you as a complete surprise?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what I expected after reading the newspapers.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask one question there.

When your brother left, after that short stay following his service in the Marine Corps, did you know that he was going to Russia—did he say anything to you about going to Russia at that time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say to you as to his plans?

Mr. Oswald. That he was going to New Orleans, Louisiana, to visit my Aunt Lillian.

Mr. Jenner. Your Aunt Lillian whom?

Mr. Oswald. Murret.

Mr. Jenner. The family you identified yesterday—the Murret branch of your family?

Mr. Oswald. I don't recall identifying them.

Mr. Jenner. There was one occasion yesterday.

Mr. Oswald. All right. Yes, sir; that is correct. And that he was——

Mr. Jenner. That is an Aunt on which side—your father's or mother's?

Mr. Oswald. My mother's side. And that he was going to visit with them, and at the same time find a job in New Orleans, and make his home in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Mr. Jenner. Did he give you any indication at any time during his stay—this was in Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During his stay in Fort Worth, upon his return and discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; none whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Whether he was going to go to Europe, Russia, or anywhere else?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. The only information he gave me was that he was going only to New Orleans, Louisiana, from Fort Worth, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in Fort Worth, Texas, in this interim period?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately one day out of the two or three days he was there.

Mr. Jenner. Are you suggesting that most of your contact with him during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, that I at least talked to him on the telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our home.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the day that you went off hunting, which you testified about yesterday?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And never during any of the contact that you had with him did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip which would take him out of the United States?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't know about his having applied for a new passport?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not know he applied for any passport.

Mr. Jenner. During the day that he visited you, did your mother visit at your home on that day?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. At any time during the period between his discharge from the Marines and his arrival in Fort Worth, and his departure, was there any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother Lee were together?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion between you at any time during that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge from the Marine Corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in normal course, which as I understand would have been in December of that year?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that.

Mr. Jenner. Who initiated it?

Mr. Oswald. I feel certain like I did.

Mr. Jenner. And what did you do? Ask him—just tell us what you asked him. And why you were curious, if you were.

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my memory, I asked him—because I was aware of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier.

Mr. Jenner. Written the Red Cross?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I also——

Mr. Jenner. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be released earlier?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that he be released earlier.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is all he said?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't elaborate on that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. May I have his release date, please?

Mr. Liebeler. September 11, 1959.

Mr. Oswald. I would say approximately three or four months earlier.

Mr. Jenner. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately, yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. 1959?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you talked with her in the interim period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11 or 12, 1959, had you talked to her?

Mr. Oswald. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of whether it was weeks or several months?

Mr. Oswald. I can give an estimate of several months.

Mr. Jenner. Several months?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. Was she hospitalized at this period?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of her state of well being?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During the four month period?

Mr. Oswald. Sir? During the four month period?

Mr. Jenner. You say for three to four months prior to September 11, you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that, you had not talked with her.

I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise?

Mr. Oswald. During the approximate date of three or four months prior to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time, if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and injured her nose.

I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Having reached that point—is that how you first discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told you.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I correct about that?

Mr. Oswald. It was not a telephone conversation, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You saw her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the month of April '59?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately that date.

Mr. Jenner. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?

Mr. Oswald. I saw her at her place of employment.

Mr. Jenner. And how did that come about?

Mr. Oswald. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some possibilities—that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?

Mr. Oswald. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection at the moment?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department Store.

Mr. Jenner. This is a shoe store?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.

Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware she was employed there?

Mr. Oswald. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How long—did you know then how long she had been employed at Cox's Department Store?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed?

Mr. Oswald. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Dulles. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after the accident?

Mr. Oswald. My recollection of that, sir—this was shortly after the accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from our conversation that day that she had been off for a while—I don't know how long a period—and that she was still employed there. Because this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store.

Mr. Jenner. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she related to you an accident she had suffered—that was the first news you had of it?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well being was prior to that time?

Mr. Oswald. None that I remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience of getting there.

Mr. Oswald. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir, it was approximately two miles from my home.

Mr. Jenner. Did you come from your home to her place of business or from work to her place of business?

Mr. Oswald. I believe I went from home to her place of business.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a week day, a working day?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I don't believe it was.

Mr. Jenner. That is not for you. Was it for her?

Mr. Oswald. It was for her, sir, not for me.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, it was a Saturday.

Mr. Oswald. I would believe that would be correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it has not.

Mr. Jenner. May I ask you this, sir?

When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you visited her?

Mr. Oswald. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before, several months.

Mr. Jenner. All right. That would be several more months, back into the winter time of 1959?

Mr. Oswald. '58, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Yes—'58.

Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it have been?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct, sir, approximately April of 1959. January of 1958 would be well over a year. It had not been that long.

Mr. Jenner. Well, then—I had said January '59, and you said several months.

Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far back as January of 1959, am I not correct?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it could be that far.

Mr. Jenner. And your present recollection is that it might have been that much of a period of time—sometime in January, 1959, to this occasion in April of 1959 when you had—you visited her at Cox's Department Store?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer.

Mr. Jenner. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958?

Mr. Oswald. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958 that I did see her.

Mr. Jenner. Would it be if at all quite infrequent?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, quite infrequent.

Mr. Jenner. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr. Oswald.

I take it that for some period of time in that area of time—that is '58, '59, and perhaps even back of that—your contact with your mother was quite limited?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the broad picture first.

Mr. Oswald. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952.

Mr. Jenner. And persisted thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. Persisted thereafter that I saw her only very infrequently.

Mr. Jenner. Did your joining the Marine Corps—was that stimulated in any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with you?

Mr. Oswald. Partly, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state that, please?

Mr. Oswald. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was approximately May 29, 1952——

Mr. Jenner. You were then 17 years old, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we——

Mr. Dulles. '52?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was with—he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi.

Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex.

At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mr. Oswald. Because mother and I was having a disagreement.

Mr. Jenner. About what?

Mr. Oswald. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life generally.

Mr. Jenner. That is whether you would depart the family home and live on your own?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to start my own life in the manner that I wanted to.

Mr. Jenner. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that you had led up to that moment?

Mr. Oswald. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely in all respects.

Mr. Jenner. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to your brother, John Pic?

Mr. Oswald. I would say generally it would, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It did rather than it would?

Mr. Oswald. That it did, yes, sir—thank you.

Mr. Jenner. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard?

Mr. Oswald. It is not to my knowledge that it was.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach that conclusion.

Mr. Dulles. You would?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I would.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go off on the trip?

Mr. Oswald. I just went off on the trip, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Without advising her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at home.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now what led us back along this trail was the conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from the Marines on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question there.

Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on her own, or don't you know?

Mr. Oswald. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the request to the Red Cross.

Mr. Jenner. And that understanding is based on what?

Mr. Oswald. Just a general feeling that I had at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross?

Mr. Oswald. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something along that line. And I thought it was unwise.

Mr. Jenner. Is this what you said to him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I pointed out—I felt like since it was to be under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say to that?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that, the conditions which brought that about?

Mr. Oswald. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number of occasions—I say a number—perhaps three or four occasions—made it quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at her apartment there in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Now, please, Mr. Oswald—when you say your mother made it quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it quite difficult"?

Mr. Oswald. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own family, she certainly wanted to—my mother certainly wanted to—still control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions.

Mr. Jenner. Can you give us one specific example?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples.

Mr. Jenner. Indicate the nature of those incidents.

Mr. Dulles. Had she objected to your marriage?

Mr. Oswald. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling that she objected?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, to some extent I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming married before you became married?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. And did she—what views did she express in that connection?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, that I would stay with her.

Mr. Jenner. When was your marriage again, please?

Mr. Oswald. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in November—November 20 or 21, 1956.

Mr. McKenzie. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your marriage.

Mr. Oswald. This was in November 1956, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother acquainted with her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes sir; she was.

Mr. Jenner. Did she—did her objections to your marriage, in addition to those you stated—were there any personalities in the sense of her objecting to your fiance?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance?

Mr. Oswald. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind right now—I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to the extent of my friend, either boys or girls.

Mr. Jenner. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will also ask you about Lee Harvey.

Mr. Oswald. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother.

Mr. Jenner. Presented them to mother, you mean?

Mr. Oswald. Presented them to mother.

Mr. Jenner. Was that his choice?

Mr. Oswald. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his choice.

Mr. Jenner. He preferred not to?

Mr. Oswald. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to.

Mr. Jenner. Not presenting his friends to your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether he brought his friends to your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played around the house with friends there in the neighborhood.

Mr. Jenner. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. He is five years younger than you.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are talking about.

Mr. Jenner. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other. Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of antipathy exist at that time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I don't believe it did.

Mr. Jenner. When did it really arise in any marked degree?

Mr. Oswald. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. That was in June 1948.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young Street address in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. At or about that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was that in 1948?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you?

Mr. Oswald. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of us were together. And perhaps, sir—I say perhaps this would be correct—she did not know myself and my older brother John at that particular time to any extent.

Mr. Jenner. You had been away at school pretty much?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. But you had been home for three months in the summertime?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind, I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself, on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had become—there again I say we—John and I—I feel like I certainly had become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my feeling at that time.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April 1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she did.

Mr. Jenner. What evidence was there of her injury?

Mr. Oswald. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of the nose.

Mr. Jenner. Any scratch or other skin break?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her injury was major or minor?

Mr. Oswald. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors.

Mr. Jenner. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the physicians indicated otherwise?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She was not chronic in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not to my knowledge.

Mr. Dulles. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this injury?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or did she continue working?

Mr. Oswald. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the accident occurred.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. But she was at work on the day you visited her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from the service earlier than he was scheduled to return?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I don't believe I was.

Mr. Jenner. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this particular time—that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959?

Mr. Oswald. If I may take a moment, please, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from the service earlier.

Mr. Jenner. Had you received any communication from him prior to his return—that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of his return?

Mr. Oswald. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter dated—postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L. H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated.

Mr. Jenner. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You have the original of that letter before you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that letter—did you receive in addition to this letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well, pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important thing in my life"—"in life." Have I read it correctly?

Mr. Oswald. You have, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to this subject matter—that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he was going to go about it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not—to this extent. He did, of course, indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what type of work he wanted to do.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296.

How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being mustered out of the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he had been discharged?

Mr. Oswald. I believe that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you had that he was in Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact, that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being discharged or would be discharged at or about that time?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I can remember, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one day—that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or four days between his return and going off again.

Mr. Jenner. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in the Marines, and any leaves.

Mr. Dulles. We have no letters, have we, from the witness?

Mr. Jenner. No, but I thought there might possibly be some.

Mr. Dulles. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at this particular point.

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the Marine Corps. I recall—and I believe this was on his leave in 1958, when we discussed this—I had asked him did he know any of my drill instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not. However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall that conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any other conversation with him or any correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made?

Mr. Oswald. I certainly received other letters during the course of his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset him, or might have made him happy.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing either way?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Completely bland in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available now? Do you have those letters?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any others.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough search?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Dulles. If you should find them, you will make them available to us, will you not?

Mr. Oswald. Certainly, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months, than he had theretofore?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which was, of course, a period of time after one year.

Mr. Jenner. Had you written him in the meantime?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know where he was in the meantime—that is, any particular town or city in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. And you had the impression that he did not want you to write to him at that time?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters.

Mr. Jenner. Yes—one of these letters I am about to examine him about so states.

That is correct, is it not?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was—from that time forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one letter to another, of approximately two weeks—the letters were quite regular.

Mr. Jenner. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the Marine Corps?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family. Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had been—this was the first communication you had had from him, as he says, in a long time.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"?

Mr. Oswald. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two or three letters.

Mr. Jenner. His leave in '58 was when, again, please?

Mr. Oswald. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year—perhaps September.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least directly from or initially by him, that you had from him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the purpose of finding employment?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You testified yesterday that you responded to this letter—that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. Oswald. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. Oswald. Which was the letter of November 8—is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. That is correct.

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that I asked him.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know, for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"—that is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any intention of going to Russia.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned by your brother Lee prior to this time—that is, let us say, prior to the middle of September 1959?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. He also states in this letter of November 8—makes the rhetorical question—"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the letter of November 8?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it had not.

Mr. Jenner. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had been studying Russian while in the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language.

Mr. Dulles. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading during this period?

Mr. Jenner. Or at any time, during his school period?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books. I never did see him read a book—unless the covers—or perhaps if I picked it up—it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history a great deal.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great deal, devote much attention to reading?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader.

Mr. Jenner. I am directing your attention to his—oh, say, from age, let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines—maybe we better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the period of which you speak?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period—my visit to New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. And before he enlisted in the marines?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of his moving to Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time.

Mr. Oswald. With mother—in 1955.

Mr. Jenner. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the literature he was reading?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already stated?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During any of that period, and any observation you ever made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any books—he uses the expression "Marxism", communism—or any books or works, or pamphlets of that nature?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should I say, of a political nature.

Mr. Jenner. Even American politics?

Mr. Oswald. American politics, of course—American history, of course, would go into some degree of American politics.

Mr. Jenner. I think you are probably right. But other than American history.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not observe him.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he says, and startling things he says in this letter.

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line. I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as to my reaction at the time I received the letter—other than it was something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Your shock, if I may call it such, had been conditioned——

Mr. Oswald. To some degree it had; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, with these utterances in it, did not surprise you?

Mr. Oswald. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate," particularly the latter part of that statement—"which is a country I hate."

Mr. Jenner. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper clippings or articles?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did.

Mr. Jenner. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir—I was just making a note on that. I didn't realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he hated the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you given us—exhausted your recollection as to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I feel I have.

Mr. Jenner. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26, which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union.

He complained about the economic system in the United States.

Mr. Dulles. System?

Mr. Jenner. System—which he stated exploited all of its workers.

He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the United States.

He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the present capitalist system of the United States overthrown—he having made an indication to the witness in that respect.

Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United States."

Mr. McKenzie. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald—it appears to have been lifted in some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me—and this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other things to it. It is the longest letter received, consisting of some eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of misspelled words.

And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them put together.

Mr. Dulles. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an interesting observation.

Mr. Oswald. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of November 26, 1959.

In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be able to pay it back."

I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"—underlined.

"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no troubles at all now along that line."

Mr. McKenzie. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the letter of November 26th, "Note new room number."

Mr. Dulles. Could I get into the record here, just for clarification—when was this written in relation to his arrival in the Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was it before the other incident that has been described for the record, with regard to——

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you please state it?

Mr. Oswald. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the Soviet Union on October 13, 1959.

Mr. Dulles. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month and—a little over a month after his arrival—these two letters referred to?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have already mentioned—that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far as funds are concerned—he is in good shape.

Mr. Dulles. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first time?

Mr. Jenner. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to Minsk, as well.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Referring to my testimony yesterday—at which time I replied to his letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money for his return to the United States, and for that reason only.

I did not enclose any money in my answer.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like to inquire of you; also, as to its implication.

Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States.

Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would gladly send him money to return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now refer?

Mr. Oswald. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the letter of February 15, 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315.

Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds necessary to bring about his return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family, for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get settled himself.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he responded directly to your offer to advance funds?

Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters that you received from him while he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from him.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep, intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that was my intention.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of those letters to the Commission?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance any funds to him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him when he returned in June of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22, 1963, that he made a representation to the New York welfare authorities that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to advance the $200?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a report.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, returning to the letter of November 26—and keeping in mind, also, the letter—let's just stay with the letter of November 26th.

Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November 26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist Russia, or countries of that character?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26, particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards the United States and its political and economic and social system?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him—my reply to his letter——

Mr. Jenner. You did reply to the letter of November 26th?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please state what your reply was?

Mr. Oswald. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it was—and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I ever wrote.

Mr. Jenner. All right—tell us about it.

Mr. Oswald. I answered all the questions as to—if I may refer to the first question.

"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions against employers in the United States."

I recall I did reply to that statement.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

Mr. Oswald. It was my opinion—and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was voted out.

Mr. Dulles. Could we just have a moment's pause?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Dulles. Will you proceed?

Is it all right to proceed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. Jenner. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response to the letter of November 26.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to directly in my reply—I recall replying to the statement that was, that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26, to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"

I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say to me that, "You work here or there."

Mr. Jenner. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at Convair?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Resentful?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. What was your reaction?

Mr. Oswald. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Mr. Jenner. When did that event take place?

Mr. Oswald. In August, 1957, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter.

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir, continue to answer something along the question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly.

Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. I think I will ask you an additional question about that, if I may, please.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence, regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect thereto.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. And where was he—let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines then.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him that you were no longer with Convair.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about it when he was on leave in 1958.

Mr. Oswald. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any resentment or bitterness in that regard?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter about it.

Mr. Jenner. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the Convair comment, in his letter of November 26?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. I also——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with respect to the union question would your answer be the same?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; It certainly would.

Mr. Jenner. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views that unions were exploited?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his letter of November 26?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any discussion it would have been to the contrary.

Mr. Jenner. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and you thought well of it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family as far as you knew?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Proceed with your recollection of your response.

Mr. Oswald. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform, men who were there because they were drafted or because they were adventurers or unemployed in civilian life."

I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons behind their joining the United States service.

Mr. Jenner. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or visits on his part to Fort Worth?

Mr. McKenzie. May I for just a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Oswald. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want to be sure of it.

(The question was read.)

Mr. Oswald. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor left, with the members of your family?

Mr. Oswald. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I——

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in that.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow——

Mr. Jenner. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him?

Mr. Oswald. I feel like it was, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him?

Mr. Oswald. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. Thank you.

I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps.

I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss it with.

I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November 26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of time."

I did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down.

I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the brief statement, "America is a dying country."

I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake.

This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world.

Mr. Jenner. This was something you said in your letter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask what is the date of this letter?

Mr. Jenner. It is in response to the letter of November 26.

Mr. Dulles. November 26, yes.

Mr. Oswald. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November 26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it does not consist of a small home of taking and getting."

I recall my reply to this series of questions as being—as to having that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and was something of a reward for his efforts.

Mr. Jenner. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these views to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in writing this letter.

Mr. Jenner. That is why I am spending so much time on it.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are conducting this interrogation.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your recollection only what you did write, if you recall.

If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir.

Mr. Dulles. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness.

You see no objection?

Mr. McKenzie. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these letters on which we are interrogating the witness.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular line of interrogation.

Mr. McKenzie. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Dulles. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony.

Mr. McKenzie. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the record.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in full in the record.

Mr. McKenzie. I would mark right now the spot in the record following the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot.

Mr. Jenner. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall any other statements that I would have replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.

Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of 1959, it is a short one-page letter.

Mr. Oswald. This is December, 1959, sir.

Mr. Jenner. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And is that the next letter you received from your brother?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you made to the November 26 letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. There is not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to the letter of November 26?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the letter of December 17, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit 297.

Mr. Oswald. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298.

Mr. Oswald. Could I have that date again, please, sir?

Mr. Jenner. May 5, 1961.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his letter of November 26.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter.

Mr. Jenner. In your response to his letter of November 26?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter.

Mr. Jenner. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read it, Mr. Reporter?

(The reporter read the answer.)

Mr. Jenner. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. Jenner. Which leads you to believe necessarily then that he received your response to his letter of November 26.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this was orally, sir.

Mr. Jenner. After he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds.

Mr. Oswald. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Was it discussed?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did any member of the family, during that period of time, ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter with Lee?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of time when he was immediately—right at the time he was discharged from the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one.

Mr. Jenner. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he was given or earned?

Mr. Oswald. While he was——

Mr. Jenner. Or he received?

Mr. Oswald. While he was in Russia employed?

Mr. Jenner. While he was in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. While he was in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Either from his employment or by gift.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while employed in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars.

Mr. Jenner. I see, we will find that out.

Mr. Oswald. And I believe on a monthly basis.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any money by way of gift from any agency in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters themselves would be the best evidence.

Mr. Jenner. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist.

Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned from Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while your brother was there?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. What did you receive?

Mr. Oswald. Well——

Mr. Jenner. And give the approximate times.

Mr. Oswald. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I recall that on two occasions we received gifts from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six napkins that Marina had embroidered herself.

Mr. McKenzie. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while they were in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Approximately when was that?

Mr. Oswald. Prior to Christmas of 1961.

Mr. Jenner. There was a second occasion when you received a package?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What was that?

Mr. Oswald. This was closer to Christmas of 1961.

Mr. Jenner. And it contained what?

Mr. Oswald. It contained one Russian children's book.

Mr. Jenner. In the Russian language or in English?

Mr. Oswald. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space program.

Mr. Jenner. Do you still have that book?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book, and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina.

Mr. Jenner. A child's gift?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, a Russian coloring book.

Mr. Jenner. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it does.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever send you a pair of boots?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.

Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee told you about hunting in Russia?

Mr. McKenzie. You mean other than in correspondence?

Mr. Jenner. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede that by the question did you have any conversation with him about hunting in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. And that occurred after he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the approximate date.

Mr. Oswald. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962.

Mr. Jenner. While he was residing in your home?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother?

Mr. Oswald. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were not allowed to have a rifle.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any other occasion prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I believe in his letters——

Mr. Jenner. No, discussions.

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from his return in June of 1962 up to November 22, 1963, of his membership in a gun club while he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a social club, a labor union or otherwise?

Mr. Oswald. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether, to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges against him.

Do you recall that?

Mr. Oswald. Briefly, yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any?

Mr. Oswald. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen, and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship?

Mr. Oswald. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship. Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Possibly so, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges?

Mr. McKenzie. When you say did he raise again——

Mr. Jenner. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the correspondence which has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. McKenzie. There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr. Jenner, there are questions raised about this.

Are you talking about after he returned from—to the United States from the Soviet Union?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir; I am at the moment.

Mr. McKenzie. All right.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. When he returned to the United States and while he was living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in returning to the United States, the means and manner of return?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Jenner. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or either of them?

Mr. Oswald. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England, and from England to New York City.

Mr. Jenner. Did he or they——

Mr. Oswald. He.

Mr. Jenner. This is a conversation with him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject or in her presence?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I recall, no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And from Moscow to where?

Mr. Oswald. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow before they took off for Holland?

Mr. Oswald. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they stayed there at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched England in the sense that the ship——

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long stay there and that they did not leave the ship.

Mr. Jenner. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part—the way he put it to me.

Mr. Jenner. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor, New York City.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. By what means? And he did report that to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did this series of letters you received in the early portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to whether he was or might be a Russian agent?

Mr. Oswald. If I understand the question correctly this was the early stay of his in Russia in 1959?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during this period of time with your mother or she with you?

Mr. Oswald. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Where did this discussion take place?

Mr. Oswald. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C.

Mr. Jenner. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it.

Mr. McKenzie. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall?

Mr. Dulles. The date of that visit to Washington?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. No, I don't think I do.

Mr. McKenzie. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know.

Mr. Jenner. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961.

Mr. Oswald. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Jenner. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian Government.

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the United States Government.

Mr. Jenner. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about.

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have been into indicated that in any way.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent of the United States Government.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately the spring of 1961.

Mr. Jenner. Several months following her visit to Washington in January, 1961.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where did that discussion take place?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call her or did she call you?

Mr. Oswald. She called me, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you recognized her voice, did you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say on the subject?

Mr. Oswald. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of one sort or another for the United States Government.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response might have been.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you don't recall your response?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any other government including that of Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. As you received these letters, particularly the series of letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the Russian Government?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it most certainly did not.

Mr. Jenner. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it has not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your brother was in Russia?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of time your brother was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963, have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an agent of the Russian Government?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit 301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you had of any change of attitude on his part?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in that connection.

Mr. Oswald. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961, that Lee was becoming——

Mr. Jenner. Disenchanted.

Mr. Oswald. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year or so of silence——

Mr. Jenner. Give the date of the letter.

There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.

Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?

Mr. Oswald. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.

Mr. Oswald. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted with the Russian way of life.

Mr. Jenner. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to Minsk, is it not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the first letter you received following the undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was received on the 17th of December, 1959.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your impression of suspicion that he was becoming—either was completely or was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was then——

Mr. Jenner. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May 5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which he expressly stated——

Mr. McKenzie. Disenchantment.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will now undertake to investigate that circumstance.

Mr. McKenzie. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?

Mr. Jenner. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit numbers.

Mr. McKenzie. It is June 26, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.

Mr. McKenzie. August 21, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. Is the envelope dated August 21?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303.

You need not do it.

Mr. McKenzie. And September 10, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.

Mr. McKenzie. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.

Mr. Dulles. That is French.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother returned from Russia in June of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June 13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.

Mr. Jenner. During the month they lived in your home, were you better able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand English?

Mr. Oswald. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.

Mr. Jenner. As to her facility in that regard—did her facility in that regard become better as the months and years wore on?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas, Tex., in the winter of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her desires in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect either pro or con.

Mr. Jenner. You have no impressions on the subject either way?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.

Mr. Jenner. That was expressed in your presence during that period of time by him?

Mr. Oswald. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults in the family.

Mr. Jenner. Did the State Department or any agency of the United States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did any agency of the United States or any public body located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that you identified yesterday?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.

Did you send the football to him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that you had put to him.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have that letter?

Mr. Oswald. The letter of July 14?

Mr. Jenner. No, this is December 14.

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have the letter.

Mr. Jenner. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you had written him prior thereto?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. Jenner. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in response to an earlier letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it was not in response—it was a response to an earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not all my letters——

Mr. Jenner. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.

Mr. Oswald. In reference to the question regarding that letter of December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any letter with 'certain' questions."

I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political type questions to see whether or not he would receive——

Mr. Jenner. He would respond?

Mr. Oswald. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. To see whether he would respond, did you say?

Mr. Oswald. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my own way whether this was so or not.

I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through rather than be destroyed or not received by him.

Mr. Jenner. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received your letter.

Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that matter.

Mr. Jenner. When was that? Where was it?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Who was present?

Mr. Oswald. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room which was the living room of our home.

Mr. Jenner. In your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Oswald. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an honorable discharge.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

Mr. Oswald. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22, 1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 318.

As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?

Mr. McKenzie. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner?

Please, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. Certainly, proceed.

Mr. McKenzie. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull them out of your file there I will—do you want to take the originals?

Mr. Jenner. That will be the best way of doing it.

Mr. McKenzie. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit number. I have no objection.

I will find out who I should see about making these.

Mr. Jenner. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine?

I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the matter in context.

Mr. Oswald. "I know what was said about me when I left the United States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the time we actually arrive in the United States."

Mr. Jenner. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And did those come to your brother's attention?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss them or he with you?

Mr. Oswald. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever respond to that particular letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask a question here?

You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back from Russia.

Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or elsewhere?

Mr. Oswald. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more specifically, one newspaperman.

Mr. Jenner. But he did not succeed in getting an interview?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. Dulles. What Thanksgiving, 1962?

Mr. Jenner. 1962, sir.

Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall?

Mr. Oswald. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex., prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to take a leave——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving dinner.

Mr. Oswald. Where John was stationed in the Air Force—he called me from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his family.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and wife were to join you on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your mother, was also to join you on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald——

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit 320.

Mr. Oswald. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee."

Mr. Jenner. Did he come to Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. For that particular occasion?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did he arrive?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. Of Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. Jenner. Who?

Mr. Oswald. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Jenner. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. And John Pic and his wife?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. You and your wife?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your children?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The children of Lee and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. The child. There was only one at that time.

Mr. Jenner. That is right, the child June. Anyone else?

Mr. Oswald. The children of John and Marge Pic.

Mr. Jenner. But your mother did not attend the dinner?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you invited her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know, she was unaware of it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the fact that she was not present at the dinner?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by way of employment in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Jenner. What was said, and by whom?

Mr. Oswald. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably.

Mr. Dulles. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Very fit physically and very alert mentally.

Mr. Jenner. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's un-American beliefs?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate that discussion between yourself—was it confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Did you raise the subject?

Mr. Oswald. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you not?

Mr. Oswald. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place.

Mr. Jenner. You state it.

Mr. Dulles. Was John present?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. He was present.

Mr. McKenzie. It was to John.

Mr. Dulles. Was he present?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right in that respect.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Dulles. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee?

Mr. Oswald. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and talk with them.

Mr. Dulles. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The details of it?

Mr. Oswald. A very small detail of it, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What details?

Mr. Oswald. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His reply was "Don't you know?"

Mr. Jenner. You recited that yesterday.

Mr. McKenzie. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had—excuse me—had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our country?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to our country?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mr. Oswald. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect him of anything.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New Orleans at this time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. That same day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time?

In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. Dulles. I think you may be right.

Do you remember that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. That is correct. It had not taken place.

Mr. McKenzie. It had not taken place in November of 1962.

Mr. Dulles. Right.

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of our knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last question?

Mr. McKenzie. You had finished your question and I interrupted you before you could make another question.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the witness had responded to it?

Mr. Dulles. No; I do not think he had.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read the pending question?

(The last question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Dulles. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. In the interim period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent?

Mr. Oswald. I recall only one, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did that take place?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. That would be sometime then in December of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he called me.

Mr. Jenner. You recognized his voice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was it day or night?

Mr. Oswald. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making that call as you recall it?

Mr. Oswald. That he was in town briefly.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he said no, they were visiting some friends.

Mr. Jenner. "They" meaning he and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very shortly.

Mr. Jenner. That was a social call?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You have given the full of the conversation?

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone on that particular time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I did not see him on November——

Mr. McKenzie. He did not see him on that day.

Mr. Oswald. On November 22, 1963.

Mr. McKenzie. He saw him on November 23, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Then my question is November 23.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, up to the time of November 22, 1963.

Mr. Dulles. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that period?

Mr. Oswald. Only through the mail, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to come to that.

Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you received from him is concerned?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKenzie. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a postcard which is dated as I recall—you give the date.

Mr. Oswald. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, we are.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

One postcard dated January 10, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit 324.

Did you receive any other correspondence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And do you have it there?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And it is a letter dated?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What date?

Mr. Oswald. March 16, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit 322.

Did you receive any other correspondence from him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you dispatch any to him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you have now identified?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in response to any communication that you had dispatched to him?

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that.

The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written him approximately the first week of March 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if you made one, did you retain a copy?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state the contents of your letter?

Mr. Oswald. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if possible, we would like to have them visit us.

Mr. Dulles. When did you move to Malvern, approximately?

Mr. Oswald. The fifth day of March 1963, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And how long were you there?

Mr. Oswald. To September 13, 1963, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And then you returned to——

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex.

Mr. Dulles. Denton, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you were residing in Malvern, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow.

Mr. Dulles. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, to approximately September 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December.

All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with Lee rather?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired it or she did?

Mr. Oswald. During that period?

Mr. Jenner. Prior to November 23, 1963.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take place?

Mr. Oswald. At my home in June of 1962, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Who was present?

Mr. Oswald. My wife Vada and Lee.

Mr. Jenner. With Marina I take it?

Mr. Oswald. And Marina was there.

Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a conversation with me.

Mr. Jenner. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of either of them to Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion.

Mr. Jenner. State what was said, please, and by whom.

Mr. Oswald. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again."

Mr. Jenner. Return to Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your presence and your wife's presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother say anything on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As to that subject matter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This took place in your home? How long after they had returned from Russia did this conversation take place?

Mr. McKenzie. What was that question?

Mr. Oswald. I would say 1 or 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. That is when they were staying with you after their return?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or to Mexico?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or any other country than the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina and the child.

His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, 1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his family when I came through town.

Mr. Dulles. Did that surprise you?

Mr. Oswald. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Which is Commission Exhibit 322.

Mr. Oswald. That I would like to have an address other than a post office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, approximately 30 miles away.

Mr. Jenner. And he did not respond to that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes.

In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963.

Mr. Jenner. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in your mind?

Mr. Oswald. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps——

Mr. Jenner. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That you testified about.

Mr. Oswald. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that this would be out of character for him because he normally would keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated——

Mr. Jenner. Despite your at least two requests?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or three requests?

Mr. Oswald. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this would be my only speculation on that, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to effect a contact with Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Did my wife?

No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now testified about?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That it might be something other than possible marital difficulties?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.——

Mr. Jenner. Despite the fact that you requested it?

Mr. Oswald. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.

Mr. Jenner. All right, thank you.

I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the examination in that respect.

Mr. Dulles. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Jenner. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your brother upon General Walker?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.

Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. No one had spoken to you about it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they had not.

Mr. Jenner. When did it first come to your attention?

Mr. Oswald. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.

Mr. Jenner. It was subsequent to your brother's death?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than school boy antics?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a schoolboy——

Mr. Jenner. Was he given to tantrums?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. Dulles. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from your knowledge of him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to ask you that question. There have been people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I think on this record.

Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?

Mr. Oswald. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?

Mr. Oswald. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.

Mr. Jenner. That is during the interim he had become, while you were away?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the service?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that what you mean to say?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed and describe that to us.

Mr. Oswald. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know of any friends that he had at that particular time.

One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a number of times during this period.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?

Mr. Oswald. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that that persisted when he returned from Russia?

Was he still of that retiring nature?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to talk to people.

Mr. Jenner. After he left your home and took residence with your mother and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my office.

Mr. Jenner. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without invitation?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to the house and return them to their home.

Mr. Jenner. Did he do so?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Dulles. There has been some testimony here before the Commission to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further light on that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that—I was aware that he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group of people.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain man named De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name familiar to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. McKenzie. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De Mohrenschildt.

I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women jurors——

Mr. Jenner. Could you fix that time?

Mr. McKenzie. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.

George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.

Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, remarried and married another M.D.

Mr. Jenner. What is her married name?

Mr. McKenzie. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was connected with some blood type ailment.

Mr. Jenner. Leukemia?

Mr. McKenzie. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.

George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some time within the past two years there was an article on George De Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months.

I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his physical appearance, the one you have in mind?

Mr. McKenzie. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 pounds.

Mr. Jenner. Age?

Mr. McKenzie. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian or of the Slavic races.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?

Mr. McKenzie. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.

Mr. Jenner. All right, thanks.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy in that assassination?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have seen pictures of it?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was occupying?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and including, the 23d of November, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your presence and his presence during all of that period of time?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.

Mr. Jenner. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the possession of a firearm of any kind or character?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962——

Mr. Jenner. Other than that to which you have already testified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.

Mr. Jenner. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in the negative?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I was excluding your prior testimony.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Use his full name.

Mr. Jenner. Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?

Mr. Oswald. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those establishments?

Mr. Jenner. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, could you give me an answer?

Mr. Oswald. I have not, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer to——

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of Representative Ford's questions at the moment.

Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November 23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And did that take place?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took place, who was present and what the circumstances were?

Mr. Oswald. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was present——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". Do you mean you are speculating?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base that belief.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is what you mean by believe?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.

Mr. Jenner. These were the persons present on this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this to be.

Mr. Jenner. And what occurred and what was said?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me——

Mr. Jenner. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And she had the newspaper in her possession?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And she walked among you and said something?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. Did she exhibit anything?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. What did she exhibit?

Mr. Oswald. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man known as Jack Ruby.

Mr. Jenner. That was a picture in the newspaper?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mr. Oswald. And she stated to me——

Mr. Jenner. In the presence of the others?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it.

Mr. Dulles. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret Service man?

Mr. Oswald. The FBI man?

Mr. Dulles. The FBI man.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not. I was not there.

Mr. Jenner. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her by an FBI man.

Mr. Oswald. That a picture that an FBI man——

Mr. Jenner. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. Jenner. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your mother made that statement?

Mr. Oswald. I believe they did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that.

Mr. Oswald. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive.

Mr. Jenner. She responded that she was certain of it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing that picture?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Prior to November 22, 1963——correction, prior to November 24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, 1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected.

However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, were abnormal reactions.

Mr. Jenner. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best of your knowledge thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, 1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion on that at this time.

Mr. Jenner. One way or the other?

Mr. Oswald. One way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Whether continued or not continued?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. Will you identify him, please?

Mr. Oswald. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, or vice versa.

Mr. Jenner. It is Peter.

Mr. Oswald. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street.

Mr. Jenner. Approximately when, please?

Mr. Oswald. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the last week in June, 1962.

Mr. Jenner. What was that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with them in his native Russian language.

Mr. Jenner. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. Oswald. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me correctly. I believe he was by himself.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you temporarily?

Mr. Oswald. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee——

Mr. Jenner. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. By Lee and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. By Lee to me.

Mr. Jenner. Lee to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And I understood that——

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is not the fact.

Mr. Oswald. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory.

Mr. Jenner. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. Gregory visited your home?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know?

Mr. Oswald. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did read——

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to the present time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't know whether it exists?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall it?

Mr. Oswald. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general remembrance of this letter.

Mr. Jenner. Was it signed? Did it have a signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. Jenner. Was it on a letterhead?

Mr. Oswald. I believe it was, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother tell you that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. Dulles. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know?

Mr. Oswald. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia approximately——

Mr. Dulles. This is your brother now?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to that time.

Mr. Jenner. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It was not long after that conversation in which your brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962.

Mr. Dulles. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he had.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate that?

Mr. Oswald. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency.

Mr. Jenner. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an interview with that lady?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In charge of the agency?

Mr. Oswald. One of the personnel working within the agency.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. Gregory as a possible source?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. With regard to employment?

Mr. Oswald. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk with him in relation to employment.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother indicate that that was his first acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory existed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And he said that to you affirmatively?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In the course of that conversation, did your brother report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible assistance to your brother in obtaining employment?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that conversation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or at least approximately then?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He came alone to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina primarily?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were present when he came to your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I was.

Mr. Jenner. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with Lee or with Marina?

Mr. Oswald. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Was he introduced to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, he was.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with her prior to that time?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or she with him?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other close friends of Lee's?

Mr. Oswald. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others.

Mr. Dulles. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian?

Mr. Oswald. His wife is originally from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. That Mrs. Ford was Russian?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. I believe Marina told me.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired into also, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way?

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory.

Mr. Jenner. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of '62?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that time, but I do not recall that he did.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have any specific recollection of it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. When did you meet Paul Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 2 or 3 days later.

Mr. Jenner. Under what circumstances?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the house.

Mr. Jenner. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in your home, to which you have already alluded?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State University, at which he was studying the Russian language.

And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. Jenner. Was that stated in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. Jenner. In this case, you now identified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By Paul Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or with Marina in Russian on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. He did with both.

Mr. Jenner. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. Jenner. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not recall any.

Mr. Jenner. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or talked with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. Jenner. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Where did that take place?

Mr. Oswald. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come about?

Mr. Oswald. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive Inn at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Who had arranged that rendezvous?

Mr. Oswald. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service agent, Mike Howard.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howard suggested it?

Mr. Oswald. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to Dallas.

Mr. Dulles. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory—have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Now, first—when was that? Is it recorded in your diary?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary.

Mr. Jenner. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have in mind.

Mr. Oswald. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. In what city or town?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And was he visiting there?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. None, sir.

Mr. Jenner. None?

Mr. Oswald. None.

Mr. Jenner. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first time?

Mr. McKenzie. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February 11, 1964.

Mr. Jenner. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that time?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you can recall none other—no other persons?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. Other than the ones I have described.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Dulles. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already discussed, and others you may have discussed.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. And other—other than there might be a reference to that subject in the correspondence you have produced for us?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias Jack Ruby?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, are you asking for my opinion?

Mr. Jenner. I am asking if you have any knowledge first—anything upon which you can base an opinion.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I do not.

Mr. Dulles. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment.

Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to add or could add?

Mr. Oswald. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have.

Mr. Dulles. Well, let's ask for your opinion now.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we will go to your opinion.

Do you have an opinion?

Mr. Oswald. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only that that you voice this opinion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with the decision which your sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly am.

Mr. Jenner. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision?

Mr. Oswald. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now recall about it?

Mr. Oswald. This took place at the Inn——

Mr. Jenner. Before you answer—it is not recorded in your diary, is it?

Mr. McKenzie. The diary would be the best evidence of that.

Mr. Jenner. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages——

Mr. Dulles. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it.

Mr. McKenzie. I don't, either. I don't believe it is.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time.

Mr. Oswald. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. In whose presence, if anyone?

Mr. Oswald. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin—if I may back up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that this was the thing to do at that time.

Mr. Jenner. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people you have mentioned?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her residing with your mother discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an alternative.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Marina—had there been any discussion prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside in her place.

Mr. Jenner. As a possibility?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might——

Mr. Jenner. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, was the subject of the possibility—it is always possible—of Marina residing with your mother—was it raised during this period of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being considered—apart from whether there was discussion with you directly?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation such as that.

Mr. Jenner. I forgot now.

Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And did she say anything on the subject through the interpreter?

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility.

Mr. Jenner. This possibility being what possibility?

Mr. Oswald. Of Marina accepting this offer.

Mr. Jenner. Of Mr. Martin?

Mr. Oswald. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct.

After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question—

Mr. Jenner. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr. Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. At the Six Flags?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.

Mr. Jenner. Anybody else present?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate room.

Mr. Jenner. They didn't take part in the discussion?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his home, and the children into his home.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you.

You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I take it—am I correct from that that she had not theretofore become acquainted with him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember which man was Mr. Martin.

And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know him from then on.

Mr. Jenner. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew little or nothing?

Mr. Oswald. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a complete strange family.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you were raising a question in your own mind on the subject?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I stated it to—I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Had you suggested that to her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or to anybody else?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had the suggestion been made to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it had not.

Mr. Dulles. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?

Mr. Oswald. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.

Mr. Jenner. For what reason?

Mr. Oswald. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police office, as previously testified.

Mr. Jenner. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her desire or possibility of her residing—returning to reside with the Paines?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she say on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine and live.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Even desirable to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what was your response to that?

Mr. Oswald. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the thing to do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say that to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Affirmatively?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she say in response to that?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. That is a normal response.

What did you say to that?

Mr. Oswald. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you please tell us—were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't think they are the proper people"?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. It is very difficult.

Mr. Jenner. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his recollection.

Mr. Dulles. Are you tired at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Let me ask you one question, if I may.

Mr. Jenner. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?

Mr. McKenzie. Surely.

Mr. Oswald. May I, sir, in my own way?

Mr. Dulles. Do you object to the question?

Mr. McKenzie. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I think he is trying to answer your question.

Mr. Jenner. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

But the witness, as always—this is not criticism of this witness—they do tend to speak in terms of conclusions.

I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and recite what occurred.

Mr. Dulles. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever you wish to do?

Mr. Jenner. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, exactly what you said to her in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. My recollection of that, sir—I stated to her, because of her limited knowledge of English, that no—perhaps with some hand signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this line—something of that nature, sir.

That is the best I can do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction of that—was that Saturday night, did you say?

Mr. Oswald. No, this was a Wednesday.

Mr. Jenner. Wednesday night—had led you to have some reservations about them?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it was—because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.

Mr. Dulles. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. Paine from time to time would visit there.

Mr. Oswald. That is my understanding, too, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina this advice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and not divorced. Isn't that correct?

Mr. Jenner. That is my understanding.

Mr. Oswald. That is my understanding, also.

And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.

Mr. Jenner. Aware of the separation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine that he would—I believe this to be my best recollection—that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult situation, I will explain it on the way."

Mr. Jenner. And that increased your antipathy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that Marina would reside with the Martins?

Mr. Oswald. Not on Wednesday night, sir.

On Thursday, the ensuing night.

Mr. Jenner. The following day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have told us about that.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my mother.

Mr. Jenner. You do not?

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir—I believe you have reference to the United States Secret Service agents there.

Mr. Jenner. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want to cover that.

You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the—by FBI agents?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You might have an opinion, but you have no—well, I will withdraw that.

Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.

Mr. Oswald. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.

Mr. Jenner. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" in your opinion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.

Mr. Jenner. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?

Mr. Oswald. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front door one day—I do not recall the day—I would say this would be approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963—there was a brief exchange at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."

And Mr. Kunkel's reply was—and he was irritated—that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.

And that was the end of that.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your mother?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the FBI did not interview her.

Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. May I have your question again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. Oswald. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.

I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.

And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI agents, had you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. I think that is indicated in your diary.

Mr. Jenner. I will touch on that subject in due course.

But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. Do you have any—do you know why the FBI did not interview your mother?

Mr. Oswald. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November 26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.

And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And did they do so?

Mr. Oswald. They did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did they interview your mother?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did they interview you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

If I may, sir—in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an interpreter present?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. Jenner. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?

Mr. Oswald. When the FBI agents arrived there—I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. Browns that I have met in the FBI—I do not know his initials—the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mr. Oswald. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the FBI agents on this particular day.

Mr. Jenner. Through what source?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory—through Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information?

Mr. Oswald. I believe she was, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And she expressed that aversion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. Was the reason given in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. That she did not——

Mr. Jenner. Was it—yes or no?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting Marina?

Mr. Oswald. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure.

Mr. Jenner. Yes—but through what source did you obtain it?

Mr. Oswald. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.

And other Secret Service agents.

Mr. Jenner. And what did he say as to her aversion?

Mr. Oswald. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.

Mr. Jenner. In the home?

Mr. Oswald. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside—but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.

Mr. Dulles. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, 1963, was it not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent—not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name—she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start—I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Harsh towards Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting——

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mr. Oswald. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there—if I might state—with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.—we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps—I say, again, I am implying—in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.

I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location.

Mr. Jenner. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was his response?

Mr. Oswald. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."

I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down—if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.

And he said he would speak to her.

Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.

I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.

Mr. Jenner. By the FBI agents?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. To Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They spoke English?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the interpreter whom you named—was he participating?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.

And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."

Mr. Jenner. And did you?

Mr. Oswald. I certainly did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say? You went over to the agent?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table—it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about—anything about the tape recording. I did say to him—and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that—that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude.

Mr. Jenner. Supposed, you mean?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.

And I returned to my chair at the table.

They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald at that time, at which time Mr. Brown—he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.

I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.

As the other gentlemen arose——

Mr. Jenner. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?

Mr. Oswald. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of the FBI agents.

And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me—he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."

Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned to him to cut it off right here.

Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.

About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert Oswald—he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown asked me if—it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said this was so.

Mr. Jenner. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I believe, verbatim would be—my answer to that question, sir, is yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By Mr. Brown?

Mr. Oswald. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the end of that incident?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you had no other source?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds—either her doing so or your doing so—to your brother Lee when he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that——

Mr. Jenner. This is while he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in Crowell, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. She wrote you a note?

Mr. Oswald. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding—and that was the word she used in the letter—that I do so.

Mr. Jenner. That you do what?

Mr. Oswald. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to forward to Lee.

This I did not do, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that letter, did you have any—well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. Jenner. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the State Department?

Mr. Oswald. I did not assist him in any way, sir.

Mr. Dulles. He did not request it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss that subject with him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And did he so express himself?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you offer to help him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And he refused?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At any time—let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from Russia—did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for Marina?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion—obviously, you did—to observe the relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in their—as husband and wife?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did observe that.

Mr. Jenner. And would you please state what you observed in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice to Marina—not understanding what was being said—but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.

Mr. Jenner. Inconsiderate?

Mr. Oswald. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. Inconsiderate?

Mr. Oswald. Inconsiderate.

Mr. Jenner. Of her?

Mr. Oswald. Of her—some little thing she might want to do. I say some little thing—something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing—I don't recall any specific incident.

Mr. Dulles. Do you recall her reaction?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Dulles. What was it?

Mr. Oswald. It was usually silence.

Mr. Jenner. Usually what, sir?

Mr. Oswald. Silence.

Mr. Jenner. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?

Mr. Oswald. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded.

Mr. Jenner. In the presence of somebody else?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal course.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate—both of them appeared to be—and I believe this still to be so—very affectionate to the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including August of 19—Thanksgiving Day 1962—it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct—I don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Any kind or character, at any time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having physically harmed her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. The subject was never discussed in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. By anyone?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November 23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some physical harm on your sister-in-law?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or any other physical injury?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could understand English and could read English—let's confine it to the period up to and including November 22, 1963.

What is your opinion on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the English language is less than what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my attention since her visit to Washington.

Mr. Jenner. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any extent—perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old—if that much.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

I might further qualify that, sir—that she could perhaps speak more English words than she can read or understand.

Mr. Jenner. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular—than she lets on?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any—or asserted any claims on her part, that there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone else, that would be relevant to this matter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. Dulles. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. None, sir, that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mr. Oswald. None.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; at no time has she.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.

Mr. Jenner. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including November 23, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Christmas of 1963, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry—I misinterpreted that.

Christmas of 1963—Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were there?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.

Mr. Jenner. Then you do not—all right.

Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that?

Mr. Oswald. Perhaps one thing, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night.

Mr. Jenner. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. Oswald. And I might add, sir—I don't believe I stated this. I, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.

You have testified to ownership of rifles.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And do you still own a rifle?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you own and possess a rifle—I will withdraw that.

Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. Jenner. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie—I have a question here dealing with the nature of Marina's contract—if there is still one between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.

Do we have that contract?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number.

And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of $100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. Thorne.

I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina Oswald.

And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. Jenner. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced.

And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.

And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer.

Mr. Jenner. And you do represent her?

Mr. McKenzie. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a written contract with her?

Mr. McKenzie. I have no written contract with her.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that she knows a little French?

Mr. Oswald. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.——

Mr. Jenner. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?

Mr. Oswald. Within the past 10 days to two weeks—I believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man or men?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified.

George Bouhe?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard of that name?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Teofil Meller?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Elena Hall?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. Jenner. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother Lee?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I am.

Mr. Jenner. What were the circumstances, and when?

Mr. Oswald. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray—and I feel like this is the same one—was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab.

Mr. Jenner. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your brother Lee in public?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina ever discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, Vada?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. On that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.

What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald—if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that—that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.

Mr. Oswald. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. On the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Is there anything——

Mr. Jenner. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.

Mr. McKenzie. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?

Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?

Mr. Dulles. I think it would be useful to do that.

Mr. Jenner. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask Mr. Oswald a few things.

Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the President first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe I do.

Mr. Jenner. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the City Jail?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And is that likewise true—that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of November?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would wish also to join in and put to you.

Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it—is there anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook?

Mr. Oswald. Well——

Mr. Jenner. That is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir—not to the entries or material that is already in here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at the Inn of the Six Flags—and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary.

Mr. Jenner. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir, we shall.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and during that week.

Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?

Mr. Dulles. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it again and I will do that. But, at this time—it seemed to me, as I read it, to cover the area you have indicated.

I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I had not had the diary available.

Mr. Jenner. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.

Mr. Dulles. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the Commission.

Do you wish to—it has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. It is in the record.

Mr. Dulles. But do you wish it put in this record?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate—to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will forward the tape to us.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.

Mr. Dulles. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?

Mr. Oswald. I will certainly do so, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always have to reserve that for the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony.

For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum.

Mr. Dulles. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in New Orleans since November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I have not.

Mr. Jenner. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?

Mr. Oswald. The cause of that split, sir——

Mr. Jenner. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?

Mr. Oswald. Full knowledge of the split, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Will you tell us about it? What led to it and——

Mr. Oswald. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. When did you give that advice and make that request?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the Paines?

Mr. Oswald. This was the first occasion, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.

Am I correct?

Mr. Oswald. Not fully, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Will you please explain?

Mr. Oswald. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. What was the date?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately December 20 or December 21.

Mr. Jenner. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had written her, Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Asking Marina to do what?

Mr. Oswald. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone.

I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, Marina?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. May I ask a question right there, please?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or Mrs. Paine is concerned?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact?

Mr. Oswald. I am not aware of any such contact.

Mr. McKenzie. All right, sir. Proceed.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with Elena Hall at that time?

Mr. Oswald. October, 1962, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. One moment, please.

No, sir. I was not aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the month of October, 1962?

Mr. Oswald. Only to the city in which he was living.

Mr. Jenner. And what city was that?

Mr. Oswald. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. Hall?

Mr. Jenner. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they were not.

Mr. Jenner. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

If I might make one correction, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner, All right, with the exception of that.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. Jenner. I think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?

Mr. Oswald. You are referring to the period in 1959?

Mr. Jenner. I am.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?

Mr. McKenzie. Are you asking about his return to the United States or his going to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of attitude.

Mr. Oswald. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the United States from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a surprise to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain both of your answers.

Mr. Oswald. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.

Mr. Oswald. I beg your pardon, sir?

Mr. Jenner. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you seeking that May letter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to the letter of May 22, 1962?

Mr. Jenner. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. Jenner. What does it say, please?

Mr. Oswald. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."

Mr. Jenner. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England and then went directly to the United States.

Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America probably in New Orleans."

Mr. Jenner. He actually arrived in New York City.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Or by him in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Or by Marina?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. With you or in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, 1960.

Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?

Mr. Oswald. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation.

Mr. Jenner. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.

Mr. Oswald. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on the 18th of April, 1960.

I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 days later.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject matter, first.

Mr. Oswald. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was put.

Mr. Jenner. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my remembrance, sir.

Mr. Dulles. By subject matter, do you mean reason?

Mr. Jenner. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not believe he did.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any Soviet officials discussed?

Mr. Oswald. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In case any——

Mr. Jenner. Any representative.

Mr. Oswald. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.

Mr. Jenner. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you agreed to do that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Mr. Dulles. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since that date?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. I think we will get to that.

Mr. Dulles. Are they pertinent?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.

Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with Mr. Fain.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.

Mr. Jenner. You have no present recollection of that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. This is not—trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.

Mr. Dulles. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification?

Mr. Jenner. Some item of personal identification.

Mr. McKenzie. Marks identifying.

Mr. Dulles. Wound or anything of that sort?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Physical marks really.

Mr. Jenner. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.

Mr. Oswald. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date.

Mr. Jenner. That is his right ear, was it not?

Mr. Oswald. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such an inquiry had been made of you?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of this inquiry.

Mr. Jenner. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned—no, he is still in Russia.

Mr. Dulles. He is still in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?

Mr. Jenner. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. By way of a telephone call?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the Russians.

Mr. Oswald. This was in September 1961, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny it.

Mr. Jenner. It is possible that you made that statement?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on that date or approximately that date?

Mr. Oswald. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Did she report both occasions to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were?

Mr. Oswald. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she acknowledged that Mr. Fain——

Mr. Jenner. Did she tell you that, sir?

Mr. Oswald. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired——

Mr. Jenner. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?

Mr. Oswald. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.

Mr. Dulles. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?

Mr. Oswald. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr Jenner. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not recall that.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall her reporting that to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, 1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge of it.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts?

In other words, approximately five weeks later?

Mr. Oswald. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview.

This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.

Mr. Dulles. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of your brother's arrival in the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, there was not.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion on that subject at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort Worth and were living with you and with her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not state that to me.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give again the full conversation?

Mr. Oswald. On that date of June 26, 1962?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of your recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.

If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.

Mr. Jenner. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the FBI that—she had discussed with Mr. Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's return.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.

The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired——

Mr. Jenner. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, I had.

Mr. Jenner. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of Mr. Fain?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. Oswald. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I gave him this location.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell me what you said to him?

Mr. Oswald. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks from West 7th Street.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we thank you.

However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can——

Mr. Dulles. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.

Mr. McKenzie. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.

And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do know that you have plans and if we can meet——

Mr. Dulles. We will have to do it tomorrow.

Mr. McKenzie. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the Commission's——

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water.

(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)